Pass Me The Puke Bucket

[rfgqqabc]

Can flat for deception & position advantage

Don't mind the 4bet click back if u have a plan before u do it.

Not folding this hand the way it's played, and from what u have said about him in the notes. Wouldn't be making a habit of folding kings pre flop in general, but obviously can be done with specific reads on opponent.

Is this full ring? You have 3b his UTG open - looks strong in a vacuum

did u really 5-bet for info? Did you 5-bet to induce the spazz and then fold?

Do you believe his range to now be [AA] only? Is he ever spacking it in with AK?

I've folded KK pre like 3 times I think and been wrong at least once.

From a pure maths standpoint:

I think it's like £266 to win (55 + 13 + 13 + 1 + 1 + 266) £309 = ~50% equity required I believe

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

  35,958,384  games     0.000 secs     7,191,676,800  games/sec

Board:
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    57.191%     54.62%    02.57%          19640560       924261.00   { KcKd }
Hand 1:    42.809%     40.24%    02.57%          14469302       924261.00   { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

Being generous with QQ there...



   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    47.293%     43.79%    03.51%          11246602       900381.00   { KcKd }
Hand 1:    52.707%     49.20%    03.51%          12637196       900381.00   { KK+, AKs, AKo }


Do you think "pub"player more likely to click/something than pile  because he know pile looks weaker than strong? IDK

Prob flat pre if you plan to fold to jam; no need to strengthen your perceived range with this sizing? Like he is folding never to your click.

It REALLY depends on  your history and how he views your range here imo

Why can't we 5bet for value? I mean its not really the issue here but just because we fold a strong hand doesn't mean we raised "for info"

[pleno1]

again the logic of a raise or bet has to be value or bluff is very very wrong and especially in live cash games its a really flawed mindset to have and one that will lose you a lot of money if you dont rectify.

For example

Huge fish opens cut off and were on the button with KQhh

Now this is just such a slamdunk 3bet as his continuing range will include a bunch of hands that we beat and those that beat us we get to fold out later pretty easily. For example he peels a6s and folds most boards.

But a lot of younger guys (or girls!) assume that they cannot 3bet fold a value hand because they saw it on some bullshit deuces cracked video a few years ago.

AQhh would actually have been a better example.

Calling is terrible as we want to isoolate the fish and keep him to ourselves and emphasize our positional advantage, skill advantage and newly found initiative.

Folding obviously terrible.

So 3betting is by far now the clear spot.

Once we 3bet and he peels 99% of the time, amazeballs.

When he folds "wtf really?"

And when he re rasies us, we dont level ourself and use the arguemtn ahh i cant 3b fold a value hand, we just fold v quickly and tap the table.

This hand is quite similar in itself, people will come along and peel with hands that we dominate, especially to the 3bet, but thats where the frist problm comes the sizing is horrifically small not allowing us to really maximise that edge we have vs them.

[aaron1867]

In your reply to me (on phone, so don't want to quote) you say you don't want to do A, B and C, be side it's so deep and you want pot control, but are you forgetting you have KK?

What are you doing here against other players at the table?

Your 5b (not a 4b lol) is the only thing you did wrong, IMO. You are making it very cheap for him to get in pot. Also wondering if your 5b would be bigger v other regs?

[rfgqqabc]

Why can't we 5bet for value? I mean its not really the issue here but just because we fold a strong hand doesn't mean we raised "for info"

We can 5-bet for value - and I personally would here. Just don't agree with the sizing & don't think we should be 5-bet folding.

What is the raise then? If we 5-bet for value, we shouldn't really fold. It can't possibly be a bluff can it.

If we don't want to call it off, then like I said, just flat.

I wrote an explanation but Pads is 5x better.

Have you ever 3bet AQ and folded to a 4bet? Same thing as 5betting for value and folding to a 6bet. 

Having said that I would not 5bet fold unless I picked up some super ninja read. I also think calling the 4bet is superior, we have the kicking K's and can go 4 ways with a relatively low spr and especially if we are starting to get worried about aces, narrowing his range further doesn't seem brilliant.

[Doobs]

In your reply to me (on phone, so don't want to quote) you say you don't want to do A, B and C, be side it's so deep and you want pot control, but are you forgetting you have KK?

What are you doing here against other players at the table?

Your 5b (not a 4b lol) is the only thing you did wrong, IMO. You are making it very cheap for him to get in pot. Also wondering if your 5b would be bigger v other regs?

Not entirely certain what your point is here, without having to repeat whats already been said? Realise its a phone post and sometimes difficult to confer true meaning.

5b sizing would usually be bigger and go more in line as per what others have said.  Sounds strange saying that I'm 5b for info, but its a case of live reads FTW.  As stated, would normally have flatted but the 2 others in pot influenced my thinking v heavily.

But if you fear aces going 4 way is much better than going heads up?  If the flop comes any king, we really are in excellent shape.  Aces don't fold, and always a good chance somebody hits their underset

[SuuPRlim]

raising to "find out where you are" was a very common play not even THAT many years ago, and it worked because lets say you have QT on T74 you can raise and NO-ONE would ever 3bet with a worse hand, or as a bluff, so rather than calling down and seeig if you have the best hand at the river, you raise now and fold to a re-raise. Sounds kinda silly nowadays but this was a pretty reasonable strategy.

however, people start getting a bit cleverer and realise that people are raising these hands, and folding to re-raises, so people started raising back with draws, and then as bluffs (or at least very light) so the "raising for info" strategy become redundent. AEJONES who was really a pioneer of NL training video's was one of the guys who promoted the idea of everything is either i) For VALUE - to make worse call, or ii) To BLUFF - to make better fold, or in some instances iii) For Protection - to stop opponents realising their equity, this would usually fit into category i) like 99 on 752 A7 will prolly call but we wouldn't mind making KT and QJ fold. I remember like 4 years ago there was a craze about "not turning hands into 7-2" I always thought this was a pretty dumb theory myself. You open I 3bet AJs you 4bet I fold, I could have just called with my AJs as I was ahead of your opening range but instead i've raised and folded so I might as well have been bluffing, may as well have had 7-2offsuit.

I always thought of it as the best way to exploit unbalanced ranges, for example if a player has a pretty wide 4betting range (with a fair few bluffs) but has a joke magnum 6betting range then THE BEST hand to 5bet fold is prolly AKo - it's not turning our AK into a bluff is raising a range we CRUSH, and folding to a range we are crushed by. The "not turnign a hand into 7-2" theory basically dictates we should never 3bet a hand that is behind to a 4betting range, unless we are bluffing, in which case we might as well pick 7-2offsuit to do it with, a hand with no equity when called and that has no blocker value of significance.

I've no doubt that in 3 or 4 years time some of the plays that are very stnd in high level poker today will be laughed out of the park by the players at the top of the game.

[AlexMartin]

just look back at threads even a year ago and laugh, really fast progression.