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Author Topic: Deal Making at Final Tables  (Read 6098 times)
George2Loose
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2014, 11:37:04 PM »

Spose you get HU I a comp where winner is 100k and second is 60k and you offer a good/fair deal for the other guy, he says ok np but then his backer says "you're in 120k MU don't deal" is that unfair? Cos it's basically the same thing IMO.

Nowhere near the same thing unless  being stupid. In one scenario you're guaranteed to win the se amount of money win or lose sometimes without the other party even knowing it.
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2014, 11:44:57 PM »

So selling action should also be banned, cos if I have 100% and you have 50% then you're playing for half the money so have an advantage? Argument makes no sense....

I'm not debating this from a what's correct or not btw, I see the points as to why it seems unfair and agree with most of them to an extent...but the claims that this takes EV away from some players and gives EV to those that can take insurance is just straight up incorrect and there's no debate there.

Idk about the Monte Carlo situation but I'd imagine the most +EV thing jack could have done HU was play it out as he was the better player (no disrespect at all to the winner who played a great final by all accounts)

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George2Loose
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« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2014, 11:52:12 PM »

So selling action should also be banned, cos if I have 100% and you have 50% then you're playing for half the money so have an advantage? Argument makes no sense....

I'm not debating this from a what's correct or not btw, I see the points as to why it seems unfair and agree with most of them to an extent...but the claims that this takes EV away from some players and gives EV to those that can take insurance is just straight up incorrect and there's no debate there.

Idk about the Monte Carlo situation but I'd imagine the most +EV thing jack could have done HU was play it out as he was the better player (no disrespect at all to the winner who played a great final by all accounts)



I don't see it as the same thing at all.
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GreekStein
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« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2014, 11:53:10 AM »

Dealmaking etc should be discussed with backers/investors beforehand imo. Just like playing hands, it should be the guy who is in the tournament that is discussing deals. When I buy in someone for a tournament I don't just buy in their ability as a player. I buy into their trustworthyness, their judgement etc which includes their decision making in any deal discussion.

I just think it's unfair that a deal can be effectively made between 2 parties and someone else on the rail can profit from it when it's potentially at the expense of one of the parties who is still playing.

Who's giving Middy or Jack stick? Certainly not me.

Im doing the same as them, whatever is in my best interests,same as everyone else.

^^ also this.

Which is partly why I raise the point. I would have done exactly the same as Jack or Middy given the situation but I think this is way better for me the pro, than an amateur.

For example, I make the final of a big tournament and I'm heads up vs a non-pro, a school teacher, let's call him 'Amatay'.

There is 1mil for 1st and 600k for 2nd. Yes I might be the better, more experienced player but playing heads up with not deep stacks for 400k isn't something I particularly want to do. Me and Amatay discuss a deal where we're happy to take 800k each. Now suddenly some pro friend of mine with a huge bankroll, let's call him 'cambridgealex'sdad' turns up and says, I'll lock in your 820 and you just play.

Now the school teacher, who is a recreational player doesn't get his deal and naturally noone wants to offer him any kind of insurance is forced to play a heads up match where he'll effectively win or lose a few hundred K. To me that just doesn't seem fair. Pro now has his deal locked, feels much more comfortable and is probably able to play a little better because of it whilst mr rec doesn't have a deal and has to play on in a match where he's not really playing for the same amount his opponent is.

I realise there are a few holes in my argument, and that these conversations etc can't really be stopped when players are on breaks etc. The same way you can't prevent players from being ghosted online but there are ways to try and stop it and at least not allow third parties to immediately interfere in deal proceedings.

My mind is just still far from made on this one and I want to be convinced further one way or the other.
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2014, 10:14:41 AM »

I think your points above are defo very valid cos, it's a kinda tough spot... One thing though, and the point I was making is that 'Amatays' EV does not decrease when you do that, it might be a case that he loses the equity he was gonna gain from the deal but he EV in the comp is the same (he hasn't 'lost') anything.

You (in your example) have gained EV over the deal you were taking (you've almost certainly sacrificed EV by agreeing to a deal - unless the guy offering insurance makes a mistake) because his gained equity comes from you, not your opponent...

It's basically like an auction, you, as the better player offer to sacrifice equity to lower variance...someone comes along and outbids that player for the equity...nothing to stop Amatay then saying, "ok you can take 840 if we deal"

Do you think if one of Amatays rich doctor friends came along and said " yo Amatay il secure you're 820 go crush this guy" he would refuse? I severely doubt it, it's just a case of your options are greater because you're the better player and there is no rule against superior cardsmanship offering you an advantage on the poker table...

Everyone is out for the best for themselves on these finals, which everyone seems to forget - if jacks opponent had had a better offer in the monte HU I would have been very surprised if he'd have refused it.
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Boba Fett
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« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2014, 06:06:29 PM »

I think the thing with jacks deal is he new he wanted to sell some of the action for playing on to 2 guys but they wouldn't give him enough time to work out the exact numbers with these guys. Also 1 of the guys wasn't on the rail and he wanted sometime to confirm the other guy was deffo taking the action.

I think it's completely reasonable and pretty outrageous not to be given the time by staff. It could've put Jack in an awkward situation assuming he has a deal for a lot of money but not confirmation 

There was nothing stopping the other guy contacting some of his friends at the time and offering them a piece of the HU action also
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claypole
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« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2014, 06:20:37 PM »

Amatay hasn't got any Rich doctor friends, just a few people with low grade jobs in Watford like Scotch

Poor Amatay
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