gaggleohell in scoop

[pleno1]

Fold > 3b/f > call 3bc

3bc this close to money is disaster and just leave that stuff to holy hell. This structure so good my number 1 aim is cashing, the structure is good enough that I'll worry about winning later c

Calling as I said is also bad too as you're just bleeding money as he will make you fold at some point.

If we are going to 3bet/f anything aq seems decent. Blockers. Times he does call us we can flop top pair which is important.

But most of all I like fold.

[willrobrobu]

thanks for all the replies so far. i guess i was expecting different responses as they are those sort of hands.

summary

hand 1 -
fold pre - pleno, george2loose
3b/c - mondatoo
c/c/c - nigdawg, MC, wotrthechances

as i played it though i think everyone agrees with the river call. dont think i can bring myself to fold AQo pre with that many bb vs someone stealing, so i guess i'm ok with that one, though i understand a fair amount of the time i will just end up having to fold the cbet (or to a cold 3b pre)

hand 2 -
most of you say fold pre although as played OTR we got

check river - pleno, tl900. though i suspect others would agree with this too.
bet river - wotrthechances

as played (having bet):
call - pinchop, muckthenuts, pleno
fold - nigdawg, MC, suuprlim, wotrchances

peel was weird for me but i'm used to opening a lot of pots and i wasn't getting the chance at all having gaggle on my right, so i guess i just wanted to get involved/put up some resistance to the onslaught and the opportunities were thin on the ground. i think i just should have checked the river, i didn't think it through properly at the time but with hindsight just checking although very nitty is probably optimal. if i bet i should really be doing it with the intention to call with this hand. i b/folded in game dribbled some more chips away and busted a little while later.

[Pinchop73]

What does he bet for value on the turn, that he then c/jams river with?

In his eyes if you've called turn bet he can expect you to consider calling river bet too, especially since if he does have a stronger hand than ours, he's never going to want to check it on the river as its such an action killer thus will lose huge amounts of value. Also if he really has checked river with top of value range, with stack sizes as they are he may just 2.5x raise the river to try give our weaker value range the chance to call.

The kid likes to win pots so I'm calling.

[mondatoo]

I'm still not convinced that there isn't a point were 3b/c isn't the best play. Maybe Tom isn't aggro enough to do it vs him but I don't see how it doesn't matter how aggro villain is we just shouldn't do it. I know tourney life has value, obv, but still, especially in a SKO were some regs just go ballistic, ego wars on bubble etc etc.

It's certainly not my std line, I agree with just folding pre a lot as agree we are just going to get coffined a ton post flop.

[Honeybadger]

In hand 1, if Pads is correct that it is better to fold than to call then logically it must be better to 3bet (as a bluff) than to fold. It is a blocker hand that is right at the top of our folding range, so therefore should be pretty much the first hand we choose to use when constructing our 3bet bluffing range. Only reason to fold this hand is if for some exploitative reason you want to have no 3bet/f range (i.e. bluffing range) in this particular spot. Postflop looks good to me.

Hand 2, I'm not sure if the river value bet is profitable, but if it is profitable it is very, very thin. Which means that when you are check-raised on the river you are very close to the bottom of your river betting range, unless you are bluffing this river 'too much'... and let's face it you are probably not bluffing this river often enough let alone too much, especially as on this board you likely need to turn made hands into bluffs to be bluffing enough. So you should fold since you are right down at the bottom of your range. Added to this, you have no blockers at all to his value c/r range which makes it even more of a fold. Calling would be an adjustment to exploit a read on this specific opponent, which is fine ofc if you have the appropriate read.

Incidentally, I'd prefer to call the check-raise with AT than with J9 (although I may still fold AT if I decided to bet it) - they are effectively the same hand but at least you block some FH combos with AT and you block nothing at all with J9. In fact if, for whatever reason, I ended up betting the river with a range that included J9 and AK (AK would be a bad hand to bet but ignore that) and was FORCED to call the c/r with one of those hands then I'd prefer to call with AK than with J9, due to blocker effects on his value c/r range. They are effectively the same hand vs his c/r range anyway (since it should be hugely polarised) so the blocker effect is more important than absolute hand strength.

Edited to say: The last point about AK vs J9 is likely taking the concept a little too far, but whatever.... I get carried away with myself sometimes.

[pleno1]

spots like this 4 to the money (especially in tournies that are a big shot, yes this IS an important thing) against hyper aggressive players its fine to not have a 3b/f range in hand 1, but i did but it as number 2 on my list.

[Honeybadger]

spots like this 4 to the money (especially in tournies that are a big shot, yes this IS an important thing) against hyper aggressive players its fine to not have a 3b/f range in hand 1, but i did but it as number 2 on my list.

Fair enough. In that case I should fix my own post...

Only reason to fold this hand is if for some exploitative reason or because you are a pussy you want to have no 3bet/f range (i.e. bluffing range) in this particular spot.

[muckthenuts]

Think this hand is super interesting, hopefully Tom comes in and divulges his thought processes.

[willrobrobu]

Think this hand is super interesting, hopefully Tom comes in and divulges his thought processes.

i hope so too :p