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Author Topic: SuuPRlim - F&C shops  (Read 2606 times)
mikeymike
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« on: November 14, 2017, 12:34:02 PM »

SuuPRlim

With regards to the F&C business would welcome your thoughts so this is potentially my concept.

1.   Purchase property outright – so no rental payments

2.   Let out flats above for small rental income which over 5 years pays for equipment

3.   Kit out F&C shop budget – 60k (this might be to small)

Now the difficult parts as I do not want to run the business myself do I:

1.   Employ a manager and staff with enough incentive so they don’t peel from the takings.

2.   Go into a joint venture with an established F&C owner who wants to expand on the basis that they have the option to buy me out after 5 years or if not we sell the business as a going concern.

Restaurants seem to come and go but F&C shops seem to remain – I have visited several in the last month within a 75 mile radius and those good ones seem to be thriving.

The downside seems to me that if I can’t get it off the ground my only losses will be on the equipment purchased which would have a resale value.
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2017, 01:32:09 PM »

Hello,

As far as budget goes it's difficult to say, depends on where you starting from, starting from scratch, you'll need A5/A3 planning depending on the size of the property, installation of the kitchen will be expensive and you must not cut corners, fridges, prep room etc will quickly add up. The biggest expense is the range, the high efficiency ones are an absolute must, I was involved with two restaurants one had a modern high ef range and one an old fashioned one - similar sized properties and nearly £200 a week difference in gas costs - £10k a year. You're look at about £20k bottom line and to be able to do the kind of volumes that will pay for a shared venture you'll probably be looking £30k.

You'll be the thick side of £100k starting from scratch - I've known people spend £150k+ fitting out new, small takeaways. Starting with the structure already there you'll save some money. You can look at HP, credit options to limit your initial exposure

1.   Employ a manager and staff with enough incentive so they don’t peel from the takings.

This is the big issue,  and I've been/done it, it's close to impossible, you might find someone who is just a naturally good person and would never steal, but the bottom line is Managed independent F&C takeaways just don't work. £400-£450 a week for a good manager (no promises they don't steal even on decent money) and you just don't have the margin for it. Not many small takeaways are doing more than £6-7k p/week gross and most on this kinda scale £4-5k. The average gross margins are ~60% (used to be that it was always a high GP business but the increase in price and volatility in fish & potato prices make it impossible now) - with no rent to pay you give yourself a chance but in reality you just don't really have the room to pay yourself after a manager. I know very successful Mom+Pop F&C operations and they make the money by grafting themselves, up at 8 to cut and prep the fish, always there so staff don't steal, keep a very very tight grip on everything, make £600 a week and another £300 nicked form the till, that's the reality of most small takeaways, good money (£50k a year) but some decent graft.

Your idea with the property is a good one and I attempted to do something similar myself a couple of years back;
By the property and find an enthusiastic Fryer to run the business, give him a big share of the business and mentor him, if the business is successful then it pays rent every week, which is how you get your money, eventually you either sell the business (and get paid) or the manager buys you out - as long as the business is successful enough to pay its rent you win.

Established F&C owners might be interested on a deal where you buy the property and take a % of the business, like I say the reality of the industry is the margins just not there for shared ownership schemes/managed concerns, I've got friends who have managed businesses take £12-15k a week gross and even the they are struggling to make it pay really, for the financial risks they take almost certainly not worth it. Once you go over £145k p/yr turnover and cant enjoy the fixed rate VAT anymore (12%, with hardly any gross goods being VATable it's a god-send) then a whole host of issues and risks crop up.

If you own the property and all the equipment your risks are somewhat mitigated but it's defo not a shot to nothing as you'll never get the money you put into the building back, not to mention the operating losses you will have incurred.

It's a real tough business though, and if you're inexperienced and not completely "on-it" then you can get found out really quickly, I made lots of mistakes like this. Need top quality products and good staff, fish fryers are a high value commodity these days, £10-12p/hr the going rate for a good, experienced fryer at the moment, they know as well if they go to the coast for the summer they'll get 60hour weeks on £14-18 per hour, I know a guy who runs a restaurant in Whitby and last year he was paying his head fryer more than his head chef who's worked at michelin star level. The volatility of your gross costs as well is mental - it's not a million miles from bitcoin, when I was running a restaurant last the cost of fish went from £120 a box to £90 to £125 and potatoes from £5 a sack to £12...unless you got the money to buy in advance you're totally at the mercy of the elements and I've know it bankrupt small operators.

Having said all this doom and gloom though, get it right and it's a wonderfully simple cash healthy business, simple range of products, decent margins, no credit risks and you can run it really tight.

My bottom line advice would be, you need the people, money is easy enough, if you had a great guy to do this with and enough capital to start and lose some cash in the beginning you got a good shot, if you don't have the right person/people or go in half cocked financially then you'll be a big favourite to fail.
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mikeymike
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2017, 02:00:21 PM »

Thanks for your detailed reply –

I concur with it 100% - that said the key thing is finding the right person – which can be extremely hard.

As I said I am not risk adverse – but I have had to give up the building trade so I need something to do a sitting around all this year is starting to be a bit boring.

 Xboxing and poker tend to get a bit tedious after a while.

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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2017, 02:42:55 PM »

Doesn't necessarily have to be F&C although the simplicity of that business makes it appealing for this kind of venture - but if you can find a young enthusiastic guy and give him a shot with some cash secured against a personal property purchase of yours then that might be best way for you. You can mentor him, work on the business side of it and leave the day -to-day to him, just give him a big piece of it and sell it to him like in 3-4 years time he'll be out on his own without needing you - you can just be the landlord.

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ripple11
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2017, 03:20:20 PM »

Great reply from Dave.

Almost all small catering operations like this need to owner led and run.....as apart from many things, you keep a lid on staff costs, and of course a heavy cash operation will "leak" money if you aren't on top of it.
I used to own a successful cafe/outside catering business..... never again  Smiley .... bloody hard work, even when you are youngish and keen.

Also the old adage to remember, location.location,location.
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2017, 03:47:43 PM »

Also the old adage to remember, location.location,location.

Oh yeah for sure.

Good restaurants rarely work in bad locations, but bad restaurants often work in great locations.
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EvilPie
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2017, 04:11:55 PM »

Thanks for your detailed reply –

I concur with it 100% - that said the key thing is finding the right person – which can be extremely hard.

As I said I am not risk adverse – but I have had to give up the building trade so I need something to do a sitting around all this year is starting to be a bit boring.

 Xboxing and poker tend to get a bit tedious after a while.



This is obviously very important and should often prioritise over outright return on investment. If you can earn 18% but be bored out of your head or 5% whilst having something to focus on and treat almost as a hobby then take the 5% every day.

What area of the building trade did you work in? I'm a spark so involved in that industry as well.

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EvilPie
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2017, 04:25:15 PM »


1.   Employ a manager and staff with enough incentive so they don’t peel from the takings.


Intended pun or lucky turn of phrase?
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Motivational speeches at their best:

"Because thats what living is, the 6 inches in front of your face......" - Patrick Leonard - 10th May 2015
EvilPie
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2017, 04:37:07 PM »

Have you got a SIPP that you could use to fund this? That would make it really tax efficient if you can lump a load in there and then charge yourself rent. Great way of maximising your pension allowance.

It gets complicated if you have the residential element upstairs but then there's always the option of purchasing the whole thing personally and selling off the commercial bit to your SIPP at a slightly inflated rate.

I actually looked at this myself a couple of years ago as the returns on chip shops looked really good. The residential bit was certainly a pain but not insurmountable. Same as you I wanted nothing to do with it and I eventually just forgot about the whole thing as finding someone reliable to run it was a nightmare. To be fair I didn't put a hell of a lot of effort in to finding someone before I canned the idea so I'm sure you'd have a lot more success there.


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Motivational speeches at their best:

"Because thats what living is, the 6 inches in front of your face......" - Patrick Leonard - 10th May 2015
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