It took me an hour to calm down !

[tikay]

So what are you saying Junior, are you for it, or against it?...... (These kids DO get excited, eh?). So you'd knock out PokerGirlie, given the chance?

[RED-DOG]

I'd knock up PokerGirlie, given the chance

[Junior Senior]

One word:  DISGUSTING! , another: CHEATING! , one more: PATHETIC!

I absolutely hate this type of behaviour - i am a man of principal and in that same situation or even on the bubble i would take my own father out of the competition! - thats the game - you play to win and for fun and nothing else!

I am fed up with fighting this losing battle and there are too many tales to recount on here and too many times to mention where i have been disgusted by the behaviour and attitude of players towards soft playing, chip passing and collusion.  I am affraid the attitude of casinos and card rooms and their managers is appaulling too but often they are powerless to do anything about it as it is not technically against the rule of the game.

Sadly, Tikay right - there is very little you can do other than try to educate people that this is bad for the game and against the etiquette of poker.

simon, you right to be appaulled.

Did i not make my feeling known? - i thought i was the most opinionated person on planet poker.

ok... just for Tikay (who i know is getting on a bit and probably misread my post)  I freeking HATE Softplaying colluders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ariston]

collusion/soft playing/same village = cheating barstewards. Something should be done about it.
Me and another blondite know each others games inside out but will still try to outplay each other at every given opportunity. There has been a few tourneys this year where we have got all our chips in with very odd hands. To play him any other way than I would anyone else would be cheating, simple as that. I know tikay and julian are close but they have taken each other out of several tournaments this year.

[Robert HM]

It is cheating, pure and simple.

Congratulations Simon for not decking him 

[DTD-ACES]

Hi Tightend

Please feel free to use this article , i wrote it exclusively for Blondites so if it helps that would be great.

ACES

[TightEnd]

Will do, thanks.

I intend posting on the subject in due course.

[Yogi-Bear]

Can I throw a spanner in the works??? I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here for a second or two. I don't wanna piss anyone off but this is all rather one sided, and there should at least be someone looking from the other side.

HEHEHEHEHE.

There was a straight on the flop. And Simon only talks about the flush and the cards being No help for the flush. Also It's a Satellite Qualifier. The aim isn't to win the competition but just to make it to the last few positions etc. So I always find the final tables are a lot softer on each other, and don't play the same way as they would in a normal final. Not that I'm making excuses for soft play, nor for Simon feeling angry and upset at what has transpired.

Perhaps the guy thought he was beat or didn't wanna jeapordise another 1600 to the pot. Another 1600 he could use to greater effect later.

It's a fine line and Simon obviously feels it was crossed, and in all possibilities it could well have been. Unfortunately as Junior says there isn't much we can do. Other than checking hole cards etc. But we are only supervisors, who perhaps don't understand the fine intricacies of trap checking, feeler bets, etc. So whilst we might think they should have raised etc. WE could be making the wrong move.

It would need a great deal of debate to sort out some clear rules. Because what might be soft play to some isn't soft play too others.

Remember it's just a point of view that I've tried to get across, and maybe it's not mine. But I felt this thread a little one sided.

Yogi 

[rivered]

yep, with you there Yogi - I was thinking and about to write the same kinda thread.... not knowing much about the guy who made this move... or lack or move... he might just want to sit the rest of the hand out, maybe thinking she is playing with a straight / trips.... he might not feel there is much value in trying to gain an extra 1600, but is more than happy not to lose an extra 1600....
looking back at the betting it probably wasnt too obvious to the guy that she was on a draw - she made a 'probe' ish sized bet which could be seen as supsicious after then flat called a big raise without any flush draw pot odds.  I'd be happy if i was him (given it's a qualifier) to check the hand down with the betting which went beforehand - of course you're always going to call if she does bet, but a dollar not lost is better than a dollar won in this scenario might be his feeling.... I'm not sure this is as clear cut as some blantant cheating mentioned on here before, and i think it could be hard to enforce any particular 'rules' against this.  again, just an opinion - i can clearly see why Aces is pist off about this and i probably would've stuck her all in myself, but i can see where the guy might be coming from.  he could also have done it just to annoy everyone else!!... great way to tilt other people... would there be any rules against this - i.e. you deliberatly soft play in the hope to tilt others and get others eliminated, knowing the person you've left with a short stack poses no real threat?  it is a game of deception after all...

[tikay]

Good replies from Yogi & rivered - we NEED to see both sides of the coin if the argument is to have validity & integrity. I'm gonna sticky this thread for a day or two - it's great stuff.

And Kudos to Aces for his post, that's why we missed the big fella.

[TightEnd]

Can I throw a spanner in the works??? I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here for a second or two. I don't wanna piss anyone off but this is all rather one sided, and there should at least be someone looking from the other side.

HEHEHEHEHE.

There was a straight on the flop. And Simon only talks about the flush and the cards being No help for the flush. Also It's a Satellite Qualifier. The aim isn't to win the competition but just to make it to the last few positions etc. So I always find the final tables are a lot softer on each other, and don't play the same way as they would in a normal final. Not that I'm making excuses for soft play, nor for Simon feeling angry and upset at what has transpired.

Perhaps the guy thought he was beat or didn't wanna jeapordise another 1600 to the pot. Another 1600 he could use to greater effect later.

It's a fine line and Simon obviously feels it was crossed, and in all possibilities it could well have been. Unfortunately as Junior says there isn't much we can do. Other than checking hole cards etc. But we are only supervisors, who perhaps don't understand the fine intricacies of trap checking, feeler bets, etc. So whilst we might think they should have raised etc. WE could be making the wrong move.

It would need a great deal of debate to sort out some clear rules. Because what might be soft play to some isn't soft play too others.

Remember it's just a point of view that I've tried to get across, and maybe it's not mine. But I felt this thread a little one sided.

Yogi 

this, and the post that followed it, are interesting counterpoints, thanks

[RED-DOG]

If you are going to pass a very large pot when it will only cost you a fraction to call because you now you just can't win it, don't you think it would be a curtesy to the other players to pass your cards face up?

[12barblues]

Referring to Red's example rather than Simon Trumper's, Stewart Reuben in his 'How Good Is Your Pot Limit Hold'em?' book  gives a hand where he held QQ on a AQJT3 (no flush possible) board. His opponent bet £25 into a £2,075 pot. Reuben folded  and awards that action maximum points.

He says that 'to imagine my pot odds of 80 to 1 mean anything would be ridiculous'.

I couldn't pass here, and Rolf Slotboom didn't think much of it either if I remember his book review correctly. But Reuben has a reputation for being a really aggressive player, so perhaps it isn't always clear cut.

[rivered]

yep I agree red-dog.  maybe there should be such a ruling - pot odds of greater than 10-1 on the river laydowns must be shown to the dealer / TD only to check for collusion or something along those lines....
i don't think that happened tho in the example first given on this thread - looks like both hands were shown...

[Rod Paradise]

If you are going to pass a very large pot when it will only cost you a fraction to call because you now you just can't win it, don't you think it would be a curtesy to the other players to pass your cards face up?

I'd expect to see that Red. Happened in a game I was playing in - the big stack said - "naw he's hit it - pass" then showed - the other guy (a friend who he played regularly) had indeed hit the nut straight. It was a good fold - but I'd have been unhappy if they hadn't showed their cards - they did so no problem. Just a good call based on knowing a player.