Large Hadron Collider @ CERN

[ShatnerPants]

Just found something on that:

In tracing the history of the hydrogen bomb, Dr. Teller in 1955 paid tribute to Professor Konopinski. He said scientists were concerned that a thermonuclear explosion might spread, but Dr. Konopinski's calculations proved that the reaction would not ignite the atmosphere and oceans and destroy the earth.

I bet it still didn't stop people worrying about it though.

So Teller thought a thermonuclear explosion would destroy the earth.  And Konopinski pooh poohed the idea, proving it wouldn't.

But thermonuclear explosions caused loads more lasting damage than was ever expected, even then.  And there have been times over the last 50 years not that far away from wars that would have destroyed the planet.

So maybe a little fear is a good thing?   

[ShatnerPants]

It's cool that there are people watching events like Big Brother, but won't people watching it change the outcome?

Someone has to lower the tone 

What's wrong with Rachel anyway ?

[kinboshi]

Just found something on that:

In tracing the history of the hydrogen bomb, Dr. Teller in 1955 paid tribute to Professor Konopinski. He said scientists were concerned that a thermonuclear explosion might spread, but Dr. Konopinski's calculations proved that the reaction would not ignite the atmosphere and oceans and destroy the earth.

I bet it still didn't stop people worrying about it though.

So Teller thought a thermonuclear explosion would destroy the earth.  And Konopinski pooh poohed the idea, proving it wouldn't.

But thermonuclear explosions caused loads more lasting damage than was ever expected, even then.  And there have been times over the last 50 years not that far away from wars that would have destroyed the planet.

So maybe a little fear is a good thing?  

They knew the damage they'd do - that was the whole point of making them.   The issue is with people being unscientific.  Science makes predictions based on theories, and then validates or disproves them through experimentation and observation. 

It's when scientists claim something or argue a case without any evidence or logical theory behind it.  They should know better, but often they have an agenda.  The other problem is that if it sounds plausible enough to a lay person, then the false theory seems believable and propagates. 

[AndrewT]

They knew the damage they'd do - that was the whole point of making them.   The issue is with people being unscientific.  Science makes predictions based on theories, and then validates or disproves them through experimentation and observation. 

Click to see full-size image.

[ShatnerPants]

They knew the damage they'd do - that was the whole point of making them.   The issue is with people being unscientific.  Science makes predictions based on theories, and then validates or disproves them through experimentation and observation. 

It's when scientists claim something or argue a case without any evidence or logical theory behind it.  They should know better, but often they have an agenda.  The other problem is that if it sounds plausible enough to a lay person, then the false theory seems believable and propagates. 

I hope to God you're wrong about that.

If they knew it would effect the unborn children for several generations, and would contaminate the earth for miles around as it did.  And that pogressively more powerful versions would be made so that within a few years life over the whole planet could easily be destroyed at the touch of a button.

If they knew that, and decided it was still a good idea to continue, then maybe we should stop scientists before they go one better and manage to totally destroy the planet for good

[kinboshi]

They knew the damage they'd do - that was the whole point of making them.   The issue is with people being unscientific.  Science makes predictions based on theories, and then validates or disproves them through experimentation and observation. 

It's when scientists claim something or argue a case without any evidence or logical theory behind it.  They should know better, but often they have an agenda.  The other problem is that if it sounds plausible enough to a lay person, then the false theory seems believable and propagates. 

I hope to God you're wrong about that.

If they knew it would effect the unborn children for several generations, and would contaminate the earth for miles around as it did.  And that pogressively more powerful versions would be made so that within a few years life over the whole planet could easily be destroyed at the touch of a button.

If they knew that, and decided it was still a good idea to continue, then maybe we should stop scientists before they go one better and manage to totally destroy the planet for good

Of course they knew what they'd do.

Stop scientists?  Which ones?  The ones who discover medical cures (such as smallpox), those that are looking for alternative fuel sources, those that are at the LHC?

Science has always been perverted by warmongers.  Stop the politicians and the power-greedy, not the scientists.

[ShatnerPants]

They knew the damage they'd do - that was the whole point of making them.   The issue is with people being unscientific.  Science makes predictions based on theories, and then validates or disproves them through experimentation and observation. 

It's when scientists claim something or argue a case without any evidence or logical theory behind it.  They should know better, but often they have an agenda.  The other problem is that if it sounds plausible enough to a lay person, then the false theory seems believable and propagates. 

I hope to God you're wrong about that.

If they knew it would effect the unborn children for several generations, and would contaminate the earth for miles around as it did.  And that pogressively more powerful versions would be made so that within a few years life over the whole planet could easily be destroyed at the touch of a button.

If they knew that, and decided it was still a good idea to continue, then maybe we should stop scientists before they go one better and manage to totally destroy the planet for good

Of course they knew what they'd do.

Stop scientists?  Which ones?  The ones who discover medical cures (such as smallpox), those that are looking for alternative fuel sources, those that are at the LHC?

Science has always been perverted by warmongers.  Stop the politicians and the power-greedy, not the scientists.

So they knew they could be bringing forward the end of the planet ?  But they put out propaganda suggesting there was no danger ?

So yesterday I was quite happy that these black hole experiments are totally safe.  Are you suggesting that I should now start getting worried in case these guys have been lying to us, and that there is potentially a grave danger to all this ?

Scary. 

You say stop the power greedy not the scientists.  Are the two mutually exclusive , then ?

[kinboshi]

They knew the damage they'd do - that was the whole point of making them.   The issue is with people being unscientific.  Science makes predictions based on theories, and then validates or disproves them through experimentation and observation. 

It's when scientists claim something or argue a case without any evidence or logical theory behind it.  They should know better, but often they have an agenda.  The other problem is that if it sounds plausible enough to a lay person, then the false theory seems believable and propagates. 

I hope to God you're wrong about that.

If they knew it would effect the unborn children for several generations, and would contaminate the earth for miles around as it did.  And that pogressively more powerful versions would be made so that within a few years life over the whole planet could easily be destroyed at the touch of a button.

If they knew that, and decided it was still a good idea to continue, then maybe we should stop scientists before they go one better and manage to totally destroy the planet for good

Of course they knew what they'd do.

Stop scientists?  Which ones?  The ones who discover medical cures (such as smallpox), those that are looking for alternative fuel sources, those that are at the LHC?

Science has always been perverted by warmongers.  Stop the politicians and the power-greedy, not the scientists.

So they knew they could be bringing forward the end of the planet ?  But they put out propaganda suggesting there was no danger ?

No, I think you've misunderstood.  Some people were saying that one nuclear bomb being detonated would set fire to the whole atmosphere of the planet.  This was the bit they got wrong, this was where the science showed they were wrong.

Of course they new that a bomb would kill people.  That's what they were created for.  Bullets have killed more people.  As has famine.  As has the lack of basic medical supplies.

So yesterday I was quite happy that these black hole experiments are totally safe.  Are you suggesting that I should now start getting worried in case these guys have been lying to us, and that there is potentially a grave danger to all this ?

The LHC isn't a bomb.  It isn't designed to explode over a city and kill hundreds and thousands of people.  That's exactly what atom bomb was intended to do.

Scary. 

What is?

You say stop the power greedy not the scientists.  Are the two mutually exclusive , then ?

Guns don’t kill people, people do.

[thetank]

They put out propoganda suggesting there was no danger? Try the opposite.

Wake up and smell the PR bullshit.

Who do you think started the whole, "this hadron collider experiment might mean the end of the world" thing?

• A scientist wanting to promote the collider and raise awareness, making it's switching on a global media event?
• A plucky invistigative journalist with a pocket calculator who felt we all deserved to know the truth?

[WYSINWYG]

I feel safe now.

[AndrewT]

Is that the G-Man from Half-Life?

[WYSINWYG]

• A scientist wanting to promote the collider and raise awareness, making it's switching on a global media event?

Yer, good point. Good on em though, the whole experiment is largely about increasing our collective knowledge, broadcasting it is good.
I suppose the whole earth going down with the experiment isn't total fantasy, they're probably making new fundamental particles, maybe dark matter/energy. It's unlikely to make us all disappear, but not impossible.

[WYSINWYG]

Is that the G-Man from Half-Life?

He's just a friend, Gordon. Brings back memories, huh?

ps. If you turn noclip on, you can see what's in his briefcase.

[kinboshi]

• A scientist wanting to promote the collider and raise awareness, making it's switching on a global media event?

Yer, good point. Good on em though, the whole experiment is largely about increasing our collective knowledge, broadcasting it is good.
I suppose the whole earth going down with the experiment isn't total fantasy, they're probably making new fundamental particles, maybe dark matter/energy. It's unlikely to make us all disappear, but not impossible.

That's the thing with science and scientists.  Although the world isn't going to vanish into a man-made black hole they won't say it won't definitely happen unless they can produce 'evidence' for it.  That's why a risk analysis was carried out, and this said it was highly, highly unlikely.  To many lay people that means it 'could' happen.  But the probability of it happening is probably along the lines of being dealt AA and flopping quads thousands and thousands of times in a row.  So about evens then...

[ShatnerPants]

No, I think you've misunderstood.  Some people were saying that one nuclear bomb being detonated would set fire to the whole atmosphere of the planet.  This was the bit they got wrong, this was where the science showed they were wrong.

Of course they new that a bomb would kill people.  That's what they were created for.  Bullets have killed more people.  As has famine.  As has the lack of basic medical supplies.

So yesterday I was quite happy that these black hole experiments are totally safe.  Are you suggesting that I should now start getting worried in case these guys have been lying to us, and that there is potentially a grave danger to all this ?

The LHC isn't a bomb.  It isn't designed to explode over a city and kill hundreds and thousands of people.  That's exactly what atom bomb was intended to do.

Scary. 

What is?

You say stop the power greedy not the scientists.  Are the two mutually exclusive , then ?

Guns don’t kill people, people do.

Taking the last point first.  I knew someone would use this line, but for some reason I didn't expect it to be you.  So I expect I'm missing a gag/jibe aimed somewhere about my skull  .

People kill each other.  So you've got two people standing 6 yards apart that hate each others guts, and actively wish the other one dead.  Give one a gun and bullets , and the other a squeaky rubber duck and a toilet brush.   Somehow I believe that the guy with the rubber duck is more easily influenced about the sanctity of life.

Back to the other.  I know I overstated my argument.  Deliberately, to show an extreme and the potential consequences of taking science to that extreme.  

I'm sure when people first started thinking about splitting the atom, the did so for the purest scientific reasons.

Then a scientist talked to a politician about the potential to harness that power.
 
The guys responsible for making the atom bomb knew they were making the worlds best life ender. Ever.  Some probably hoped it would be used to end the war and therefore future wars.  Others knew that it's power was only the beginning of world domination ( cue MUAHAHAHAHA's from the audience ).  

They also knew t'other guy was scaremongering and talking rubbish about it bringing forward the end of the world ( crash of thunder, please ).

The poor saps reading the paper only wanted the war to end, so their surviving loved ones could return home to a brave new world.

BUT

Looking back at that point from less than a feeble 50 years in the future, say the mid 80's, there was genuine belief from some people that the atom bomb was possibly the worst invention ever in the history of the world, because ( as you rightly say ) politicians can't be trusted with power.  And mankind now had the skills and the power to destroy itself with one touch of a button.  It was just a matter of time before some idiot tried it.

Ok so splitting the atom was a great scientific advance.  But when it was being researched was it ever thought it would be to further medicine, and save lives, or just to see how many Japs we could kill at one throw.  Like I said earlier, I don't believe the consequences were ever really considered.  And they were a darn site worse than the scientists could have foretold.

Of course this current experiment is being carried out for pure scientific reasons, that might well help our world in many ways.  However, one thing they will eventually try to recreate,on a much smaller scale,  is the big bang

And I fully expect there are already politicians hovering about waiting for the first big bang.  Coz once we have controlled that, we've invented a weapon that will be immeasurably more powerful than any thermonuclear explosion.

It's just a matter of time.  And the politician with the Big Bang Bomb will rule the world.  For a while, at least.

That's scary.  To me, anyway.

But then I'm too fickle to be seriously worried, coz I can always get pissed and ignore it, and we'll probably all be dead anyway before anything nasty happens, anyway.

Quick half down the pub, anyone