Maximising a monster

[EvilPie]

I check it back, ur viewed as too tight to get action from bluffs (checkraises), kings will bet flop as will fd's. Check it back, let someone takeoff, board is ridic dry and you have the nuts, give someone opportunity to do something silly.

I did bet 600, they all folded.  Oh well. I almost always bet here, btw.

My point in posting is really what Alex refers to here..if you yourself have a rock image, is there any mileage in checking, accepting the risk that someone may have two clubs, however unlikely, and hoping someone im proves on the turn?

In other words, build the pot down the streets not on the flop


Just experimenting with different thoughts.

I don't exactly know your reputation but if it's "if he bets he's got it" then there's no harm in giving another card.

Problem is obviously if another club comes you will get scared if you're genuinely that tight.

Also if someone takes a stab at it on a blank turn as soon as you call or check they're going to completely shut down. You're only ever going to get an extra 600 - 800 out of this pot unless someone hits then you're going to lose unless you bink a house.

This is the problem with a tight image. You're only getting paid off on your monsters when someone else has a slightly smaller monster.

[TightEnd]

my image sticks, whatever I do

I only check here, theoretically, in full knowledge that I won't be scared off by a flush card hitting IMO

[EvilPie]

Looking at the other responses I can see that obv i am playing to tight or i just dont want an awkward decision later

as I say, my standard play is to bet here say 2/3 of pot or more to pot build. Not because I am scared of the flush card coming..something Flushy rammed home to me on PHA!

alternative I pondered was check flop, call a bet on the turn (hopefully someone takes a stab/improves) and raise, board texture permitting, on river

different risk/reward from the hand.

You theoretically won't be scared off.

Unfortunately no matter how much Flushy rams it down your throat you're still scared of that flush or you wouldn't mention the texture of the board.

Because of the way you play you have to bet out unless you can totally disregard that flush because people will know that they can bluff you off a winning hand if that club hits.

[cia260895]

would my thinking have something to do with the limits that i play at?

[EvilPie]

would my thinking have something to do with the limits that i play at?

Shouldn't be a factor tbh.

What are your limits?

[thetank]

Looking at the other responses I can see that obv i am playing to tight or i just dont want an awkward decision later

as I say, my standard play is to bet here say 2/3 of pot or more to pot build. Not because I am scared of the flush card coming..something Flushy rammed home to me on PHA!

alternative I pondered was check flop, call a bet on the turn (hopefully someone takes a stab/improves) and raise, board texture permitting, on river

different risk/reward from the hand.

You theoretically won't be scared off.

Unfortunately no matter how much Flushy rams it down your throat you're still scared of that flush or you wouldn't mention the texture of the board.

Because of the way you play you have to bet out unless you can totally disregard that flush because people will know that they can bluff you off a winning hand if that club hits.

He's talking about a river raise, at which point the texture of the board could be clubclubclubclub or KK228 or something like that

[cia260895]

would my thinking have something to do with the limits that i play at?

Shouldn't be a factor tbh.

What are your limits?

normally $12 180 stt

[thetank]

Limits you play at would be a factor.
If at low limits most random players are going to happily stack off with top pair no kicker, then you should simply bet out 3/4 pot on all three streets for maximum return. (imo)

[cia260895]

so what is the benifit of raising 3/4 pot instead of pot as i do?

[EvilPie]

Looking at the other responses I can see that obv i am playing to tight or i just dont want an awkward decision later

as I say, my standard play is to bet here say 2/3 of pot or more to pot build. Not because I am scared of the flush card coming..something Flushy rammed home to me on PHA!

alternative I pondered was check flop, call a bet on the turn (hopefully someone takes a stab/improves) and raise, board texture permitting, on river

different risk/reward from the hand.

You theoretically won't be scared off.

Unfortunately no matter how much Flushy rams it down your throat you're still scared of that flush or you wouldn't mention the texture of the board.

Because of the way you play you have to bet out unless you can totally disregard that flush because people will know that they can bluff you off a winning hand if that club hits.

He's talking about a river raise, at which point the texture of the board could be clubclubclubclub or KK228 or something like that

Fair enough.

Check flop to call a bet on the turn seems reasonable but how do you cope when the board gets scary?

What if they lead out for 800 when a club comes on the turn? Are you calling that knowing that they're likely to go at you again for 2k on the river which could well be another club?

You can get creative here but you have to have your stall set out now and know how you're going to deal with the scare cards. Then you get to out play the fool who tries to play on your reputation as a total nit by sticking one in his eye on the river because you knew from the start that he couldn't have had 2 clubs in his hand or he would've lead out. If he happens to have one club well that's life but statistically on a 4 club board he shouldn't have one so even then he gets snapped off because he must be bluffing or else why wouldn't he check to call your bet?

[thetank]

so what is the benifit of raising 3/4 pot instead of pot as i do?

You won't always have a set when you bet.

3/4 pot does the same job as pot.

Sometimes we bet flop and want out opponents to fold. If we standardize our bet at around 2/3, 3/4 pot then we don't waste too many chips with out continuation bets. It also keeps the pots a little smaller in general which is not a bad thing in tourney play.

If we only ever bet pot when we have it, and less when we don't, players will clock onto this, even at low limits.

[EvilPie]

so what is the benifit of raising 3/4 pot instead of pot as i do?

To maximise return like Tank says.

You're not doing it to scare people off though. You're doing it to build the pot against players who will overplay much weaker hands than yours.

You will also often induce a semi bluff shove from players with 2 clubs which you will obviously snap off.

[thetank]

Looking at the other responses I can see that obv i am playing to tight or i just dont want an awkward decision later

as I say, my standard play is to bet here say 2/3 of pot or more to pot build. Not because I am scared of the flush card coming..something Flushy rammed home to me on PHA!

alternative I pondered was check flop, call a bet on the turn (hopefully someone takes a stab/improves) and raise, board texture permitting, on river

different risk/reward from the hand.

You theoretically won't be scared off.

Unfortunately no matter how much Flushy rams it down your throat you're still scared of that flush or you wouldn't mention the texture of the board.

Because of the way you play you have to bet out unless you can totally disregard that flush because people will know that they can bluff you off a winning hand if that club hits.

He's talking about a river raise, at which point the texture of the board could be clubclubclubclub or KK228 or something like that

Fair enough.

Check flop to call a bet on the turn seems reasonable but how do you cope when the board gets scary?

What if they lead out for 800 when a club comes on the turn? Are you calling that knowing that they're likely to go at you again for 2k on the river which could well be another club?

You can get creative here but you have to have your stall set out now and know how you're going to deal with the scare cards. Then you get to out play the fool who tries to play on your reputation as a total nit by sticking one in his eye on the river because you knew from the start that he couldn't have had 2 clubs in his hand or he would've lead out. If he happens to have one club well that's life but statistically on a 4 club board he shouldn't have one so even then he gets snapped off because he must be bluffing or else why wouldn't he check to call your bet?

I think it's just because as AlexMartin said, the board is dry.
The possibility of clubclub landing is a more acceptable risk than if there were other possibilites for scary boards, such as four cards to a str8 coming out.

[GlasgowBandit]

Looking at the other responses I can see that obv i am playing to tight or i just dont want an awkward decision later

as I say, my standard play is to bet here say 2/3 of pot or more to pot build. Not because I am scared of the flush card coming..something Flushy rammed home to me on PHA!

alternative I pondered was check flop, call a bet on the turn (hopefully someone takes a stab/improves) and raise, board texture permitting, on river

different risk/reward from the hand.

You theoretically won't be scared off.

Unfortunately no matter how much Flushy rams it down your throat you're still scared of that flush or you wouldn't mention the texture of the board.

Because of the way you play you have to bet out unless you can totally disregard that flush because people will know that they can bluff you off a winning hand if that club hits.

He's talking about a river raise, at which point the texture of the board could be clubclubclubclub or KK228 or something like that

Fair enough.

Check flop to call a bet on the turn seems reasonable but how do you cope when the board gets scary?

We have a set just jam it in.  We have da nuts.

[MANTIS01]

There's a lot of emphasis on Richard's tight image and whether this means he gets no action. But that muddys the water because the fact is nobody has a hand anyway. You might say that is an easy conclusion to reach after everyone folds but the clues are there before you even bet. a) Nobody has raised pre - usually means nobody has a hand. b) Board K-2-8.

Forget the clubs for a second...who gives you buisness on this board? The texture is all skewy like. And we know UTG's got no king when he checks. So your main customer doesn't like the board and the blinds prob have little of nothing as always. If a King doesn't bet, which would surprise me, they're trapping (or at least not going away on the turn), which is all good for us.

It's all very well saying you bet your set 80% or 90% of the time. But isn't a K-2-8 board one of those times you don't want to bet? People say stuff like "I'm not giving a free card", but who's on a club draw? Giving a free card is not a negative thing if nobody's got anything. The problem is you see clubs and bet to protect your hand against clubs, but in reality your hand didn't need protecting against clubs. On a K-2-8 rainbow board peeps NEVER bet 3 eights in an unraised pot I would say.