What do you do, & why?

[tikay]

Well, firstly, here are the bare facts.

It was The Broadway Main Event, £1k Entry, at The Broadway, yesterday (Sunday). I was there for"In-Poker", so you can see the various interviews from Thursday, on Channel 865.

The short-stacked shover was Sandeep Shah, (100k) who had 7-8.

The smooth with JJ Man - our Man - was Karl Marhenholz. (Dry Em). His total stack was about 450k.

The shover behind was John Eames (295k, or it may have been 295k more, on top of the 100k). John had K-K, & Karl Passed.

I was stood tableside with James Akenhead, who, if anyone, would know Karl's range here.

James said to me "John Eames has K-K, minimum, guaranteed. Karl has something like A-J, or 7-7".

When it became known that Karl had Jacks, James said "no way, well I deffo go broke on that hand, because I jam".  And I think most of us do.

So I asked Karl about the reason for smoothing. And he said, words to the effect.....

"Traditional thinking is to Jam here, "Raise to Isolate", because if you don't, someone is likely to get funky behind you & try some fancy-dan move. But I don't believe that kite flies at this juncture - 5 left, in a Main Event Final, where the stack sizes are all a bit light (Monster Chip Daddy excepted), I see no need to RTI - all I am doing is exposing myself to a better hand. Because at this stage, with these stacks, for this huge prize-money, players almost never get funky"......

I am not arguing for or against - but Karl knows how many beans make five, & has a tidy Live record, so it's worth, perhaps, dwelling on his logic.

As to the suggestion that it's exploitable - I doubt it would happen often enough, at that stage, in a ME Final, with 5 left.

"Kush" was the one who got closest, soonest - he was right to say "I Call ONLY - deffo", though he never, perhaps, explained the "why" as Karl did.

By the bye, the Winner was Andy Bradshaw, who I never saw lose a single hand in the Final. He even managed a chop with 5-2 v two randow overs, when it double-paired with an Ace! The Tourney just had his name on it, as sometimes happens.

So, hands up, who goes broke here? And is it correct to go broke here?

From me, I do, & yes. Or would have done, before I saw this coup.

I'll ask Karl to comment on Thread soonest.

[George2Loose]

I think most go broke here cept for someone like Neil (Blatch) who obv spikes the Jack on the river

[tikay]

I think most go broke here cept for someone like Neil (Blatch) who obv spikes the Jack on the river

Yup.

But do you think there is merit to Karl's take on this? He was playing for serious money, & if he dodges that bullet now & then, it might well be worth big money - which is to be set against the (few) times he jams & walks into a bigger hand, of course.

[George2Loose]

I do agree with his thinking dependant on who's on the final. He is obv a very sick and accomplished player and would know his audience.

Obv if he's at a table with Flushy, Dubai, Colclough, De Wolfe who MAY re shove with a weaker hands at this stage to exploit the flat call.

The more I think about the more the check/fold is a good line cos obv very few may be bluffing in this spot. Ultimately everyone wants the short stack out- however does depend on how wide shorty is shoving.

My head hurts.

WP Karl!

[TightEnd]

does a view on his take not depend on what we regard as someone getting "funky" or not?

Is shorty shoving, Karl calling with JJ and a medium stack shoving with 99 funky by the medium stack?

what about if the medium stack shoves over a push and a flat call with AQ? is that funky?

Is Karl not in effect merely saying that the medium stacks here are tight/solid (and therefore will shove with QQ-AA,AK maybe, only) so he knows that funkiness is unlikely, in this particular table dynamic. Put two more aggressive players with the medium stacks and surely the traditional iso-shove is a better bet as the likelihood of either medium stack beating JJ pre is v low so its best to isolate, take out shorty and move on up

Very interesting play and situation here though

[George2Loose]

does a view on his take not depend on what we regard as someone getting "funky" or not?

Is shorty shoving, Karl calling with JJ and a medium stack shoving with 99 funky by the medium stack?

what about if the medium stack shoves over a push and a flat call with AQ? is that funky?

Is Karl not in effect merely saying that the medium stacks here are tight/solid (and therefore will shove with QQ-AA,AK maybe, only) so he knows that funkiness is unlikely, in this particular table dynamic. Put two more aggressive players with the medium stacks and surely the traditional iso-shove is a better bet as the likelihood of either medium stack beating JJ pre is v low so its best to isolate, take out shorty and move on up

Very interesting play and situation here though

Not trying to speak on behalf of Karl (sure he'll do that himself) but I think hand ranges such as those mentioned above 99-66 AQ-Aj etc he would perhaps expect the villain to flat and check it down to eliminate the shorty?

[tikay]

I do agree with his thinking dependant on who's on the final. He is obv a very sick and accomplished player and would know his audience.

Obv if he's at a table with Flushy, Dubai, Colclough, De Wolfe who MAY re shove with a weaker hands at this stage to exploit the flat call.

The more I think about the more the check/fold is a good line cos obv very few may be bluffing in this spot. Ultimately everyone wants the short stack out- however does depend on how wide shorty is shoving.

My head hurts.

WP Karl!

Well yes - but he was not. The Table at that stage was pretty much A-B-C, the winner apart, who just ran like God.

[easypickings]

I think we're completely overstating an isolation play, on two counts.

Firstly, the call is an isolating call. The shove from the short stack is not for 3 times the big blind, but 8. You will almost definitely find yourself heads up as you want to be, unless someone has you beat.

The reason behind an isolation shove has logically got to be one of two:

1) To bluff other players off a stronger hand, and get heads up against the short stack. Obviously, there is no worth here with jacks, where every hand that beats you will call.
2) To ensure weaker hands do not have the odds to call to outdraw you. This is not the case where the shove is 8 x the big blind, and the remaining stacks are short.

Secondly, there is almost zero need to worry about an opponent pulling a funky isolation re-raise on you after your flat call. Karl's call looks so strong that no one is going to get funky; in fact, people are probably going to worry he is stronger than he is, as this would be a good flat call with aces, right?

 I think this is almost irrespective of the table; people do just not pull the re-isolation move all-in as some kind of funky bluff. Bear in mind that they are bluffing a dry pot- they have to show their hand down and beat the short stack.

Therefore, Karl can call, and if someone else moves all-in, he can be pretty sure that they have AA-QQ, and maybe just sometimes ace-king. If they sometimes bluff you off a race against AK, it's a sacrifice worth making for the possibility of dodging the overpair.

[tikay]

I think we're completely overstating an isolation play, on two counts.

Firstly, the call is an isolating call. The shove from the short stack is not for 3 times the big blind, but 8. You will almost definitely find yourself heads up as you want to be, unless someone has you beat.

The reason behind an isolation shove has logically got to be one of two:

1) To bluff other players off a stronger hand, and get heads up against the short stack. Obviously, there is no worth here with jacks, where every hand that beats you will call.
2) To ensure weaker hands do not have the odds to call to outdraw you. This is not the case where the shove is 8 x the big blind, and the remaining stacks are short.

Secondly, there is almost zero need to worry about an opponent pulling a funky isolation re-raise on you after your flat call. Karl's call looks so strong that no one is going to get funky; in fact, people are probably going to worry he is stronger than he is, as this would be a good flat call with aces, right?

 I think this is almost irrespective of the table; people do just not pull the re-isolation move all-in as some kind of funky bluff. Bear in mind that they are bluffing a dry pot- they have to show their hand down and beat the short stack.

Therefore, Karl can call, and if someone else moves all-in, he can be pretty sure that they have AA-QQ, and maybe just sometimes ace-king. If they sometimes bluff you off a race against AK, it's a sacrifice worth making for the possibility of dodging the overpair.

Wow. Are you Karl?

Perfectly summed up, to mirror Karl's thought process.

So, Stu, can we assume you smooth here, too?

[George2Loose]

stu u in the well again?

If you were the stack behind Karl what would u do with AJ, AQ, AK. 66-10 10?

[easypickings]

Yep, I flat with jacks. I think I move in with AA and KK; it depends on the table, but in general I think people will see a flat call as stronger than a re-raise.

[Dingdell]

Not sure what all the fuss is here. He was just playing like a girl, it seems like the right and obv move in my book. It's how i would have played it. cautious.

[easypickings]

stu u in the well again?

If you were the stack behind Karl what would u do with AJ, AQ, AK. 66-10 10?

Good question, that's basically what it hinges on. I would read the flat call from Karl as having to be strong with three players behind him; I would put Karl on a range of (88-AA, AQ, AK) and therefore I would pass 1010, and move in with ace-king.

 I am probably tighter than most here, the big question is, what would the field do? Can we trust them to pass 99 and 1010? Karl might well have been delaying his decision on his opponent, and whether he can trust them to understand the implied strength of his flat call. However, even if our opponent is going to ship tens, we are still right to pass JJ against a range of (1010-AA, AK).

I still think that there are only two good options here; flat-call in order to pass to an all-in, or flat-call in order to call. An isolation re-shove cannot make any sense.

[tikay]

stu u in the well again?

If you were the stack behind Karl what would u do with AJ, AQ, AK. 66-10 10?

Good question, that's basically what it hinges on. I would read the flat call from Karl as having to be strong with three players behind him; I would put Karl on a range of (88-AA, AQ, AK) and therefore I would pass 1010, and move in with ace-king.

 I am probably tighter than most here, the big question is, what would the field do? Can we trust them to pass 99 and 1010? Karl might well have been delaying his decision on his opponent, and whether he can trust them to understand the implied strength of his flat call. However, even if our opponent is going to ship tens, we are still right to pass JJ against a range of (1010-AA, AK).

I still think that there are only two good options here; flat-call in order to pass to an all-in, or flat-call in order to call. An isolation re-shove cannot make any sense.

And there you have it.

Note there was almost universal "OMG, he HAS to shove here" early in the Thread, & I do think that's most players default in ths spot.

[AlexMartin]

sorry, just to put this in context. there are 5 left. the average is 40bb. Shover has 8bb. Karl is calling with a wide range of hands id imagine against a desperate shortstack with a healthy stack and understands ranges for open shoving 5 handed. Some people are getting a bit carried away imo. Still, vwp karl, looks like his reasoning was basically- my opponents are not good enough to make a huge move on me here, so i can get away with a call. I bet if the table makeup was more aggro he would say he would iso. If ur playing an mtt, u play it to win, regardless of the money at stake surely (i mean aslong as ur comfortable and the moneys not lifechanging)?
please comment karl.