Why wouldn't this work in the poker world?

[byronkincaid]

these things just seem so unfocused. come and listen to some bloke talk about poker. hmm great. ebooks are coming out now as tightly focused as how to beat 100NL, 200NL, 1000NL etc. videos and strat forums obv are the same.

[StuartHopkin]

My personal opinion is most poker players think that they already know it all and couldn't possibly benefit from any coaching, as they are already better than the majority of other players. I think most of us are very good at over rating ourselves, harsh but true............

Definately agree with this.

Everyones a winner
Everyone could have played it better
Everyone knows everything, and the best way to do it
Everyone is better than everyone they meet......

apart from me, Im shit, and I like it.

[kinboshi]

In terms of the academy, you chose the wrong people.

The old guard don't command that much respect. The reality is that all the kids who are crushing it chat to one another and are way ahead of the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they could teach, just that they play great.

Like dubai said, you need to define your market place better. I think less experienced older players who almost exclusively play live will be your target audience. Then price and market accordingly

Not sure I agree.  Some of the 'old guard' would be great for this sort of thing.  It's not always about getting the best to teach, and it's not always about learning that last 5% that separates the top guys.  It's stuff that lots of people can teach, people can learn a little, and they can take some fun from it.

From the sound of things it's the tournies that were lacking.

i wouldnt pay what they were asking to listen to their tutors when you can get a years worth of subscription to PXF or similar for the same money and learn much more from better players

I don't think you're their target market to be fair though.

So what is their target market?

A lot of recreational players who don't spend too much time online.  Maybe poker in the pub players, some APATers, those who watch Sky Poker regularly, etc. 

If you were an amateur photographer, would there be any harm in you going to a photography class run by someone who knows their stuff because they've got a fair bit of experience and have made a living from it, even though there are far better photographers out there?

[StuartHopkin]

In terms of the academy, you chose the wrong people.

The old guard don't command that much respect. The reality is that all the kids who are crushing it chat to one another and are way ahead of the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they could teach, just that they play great.

Like dubai said, you need to define your market place better. I think less experienced older players who almost exclusively play live will be your target audience. Then price and market accordingly

Not sure I agree.  Some of the 'old guard' would be great for this sort of thing.  It's not always about getting the best to teach, and it's not always about learning that last 5% that separates the top guys.  It's stuff that lots of people can teach, people can learn a little, and they can take some fun from it.

From the sound of things it's the tournies that were lacking.

i wouldnt pay what they were asking to listen to their tutors when you can get a years worth of subscription to PXF or similar for the same money and learn much more from better players

I don't think you're their target market to be fair though.

So what is their target market?

A lot of recreational players who don't spend too much time online.  Maybe poker in the pub players, some APATers, those who watch Sky Poker regularly, etc. 

If you were an amateur photographer, would there be any harm in you going to a photography class run by someone who knows their stuff because they've got a fair bit of experience and have made a living from it, even though there are far better photographers out there?

I think £200 would be a lot for pub players, and the majority of apat/sky players?

Just using your example, would you not class photography as a subject much more suited to being taught, with the teachings and teachers worthyness being much more easily measured?

Also if he is making a happy living from taking photo's why does he want to teach me his tricks?

[kinboshi]

In terms of the academy, you chose the wrong people.

The old guard don't command that much respect. The reality is that all the kids who are crushing it chat to one another and are way ahead of the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they could teach, just that they play great.

Like dubai said, you need to define your market place better. I think less experienced older players who almost exclusively play live will be your target audience. Then price and market accordingly

Not sure I agree.  Some of the 'old guard' would be great for this sort of thing.  It's not always about getting the best to teach, and it's not always about learning that last 5% that separates the top guys.  It's stuff that lots of people can teach, people can learn a little, and they can take some fun from it.

From the sound of things it's the tournies that were lacking.

i wouldnt pay what they were asking to listen to their tutors when you can get a years worth of subscription to PXF or similar for the same money and learn much more from better players

I don't think you're their target market to be fair though.

So what is their target market?

A lot of recreational players who don't spend too much time online.  Maybe poker in the pub players, some APATers, those who watch Sky Poker regularly, etc. 

If you were an amateur photographer, would there be any harm in you going to a photography class run by someone who knows their stuff because they've got a fair bit of experience and have made a living from it, even though there are far better photographers out there?

I think £200 would be a lot for pub players, and the majority of apat/sky players?

Just using your example, would you not class photography as a subject much more suited to being taught, with the teachings and teachers worthyness being much more easily measured?

Also if he is making a happy living from taking photo's why does he want to teach me his tricks?

Not saying it's not a lot to them.  But a fun day, and they might learn a bit (or even feel like they've learned loads) and it's worthwhile.

Why do they want to teach?  There are lots of reasons.  They get paid for it.  It makes a change from the usual work (that they might have been doing for decades).  If you were going to learn karate, would you question why the karate instructor was teaching a class and not studying for those few hours?

As for the photography - a day course with a great photographer probably isn't the best way to learn - but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad way.

[bobAlike]

I'm only a recreational player donator and I would probably benefit from something like this... but for me to spend my money on this I would rather it be endorsed/backed/sponsored by a trusted poker name such as Blonde/DTD.
No disrespect meant to the Masters Poker Academy but I've not previously heard of you.

This is just my opinion but I'm confident that other players such as myself would feel the same.

[AlexMartin]

these things just seem so unfocused. come and listen to some bloke talk about poker. hmm great. ebooks are coming out now as tightly focused as how to beat 100NL, 200NL, 1000NL etc. videos and strat forums obv are the same.

+1

Also agree with pretty much everyone's sentiments regarding the coaches, even those who are apparently conflicting. I don't think it's a problem of new players and theory vs experienced players with results, the problem with the coaches you have lined up already is that in terms of instruction they have no credibility to anyone. Get someone who's written a book or done a series of coaching videos and (if their book/videos have had some success) then at least people, new players and old, have something they can refer to as to the quality of that person's coaching. Think about it, if they like the book/video, they'll think to themselves "hey, this person's smart and seems to have figured all this out for themselves, I want to hear what they're thinking about poker right now, so I'm ahead of the curve" because that's what separates seminars from books and videos, only the people that are there get to hear what's being taught.

As far as I know, none of the players in TIPS have even made any coaching videos, let alone written a book. They're no more qualified to teach than most of the people you're asking to turn up.

+2


your marketplace is saturated and no offence but if i wanted to learn how to beat tournament poker in 2010 it would cost a whole lot more than £200.
stick a gaurantee on the tournament and give it a decent structure, then include the tournament into the whole coaching experience, plus from the feedback it appears actually having a rep in the venue would be pretty neat.

[kinboshi]

Might be an idea to try and tie-in with a brand that has already established itself with the sort of target market you're aiming at?  Someone like Sky or APAT, or one of the online poker rooms?

Similar to what bobalike suggested.

[acc2020]

In regards to the festival the Manchester Circus is definitely the wrong venue.I went in there at 8.30pm hoping to join the 8pm tournament , however it had not started as there was only 4 registered. I don't know whether a game commenced or not.I ended up in the Manchester G where there was almost a full house as usual.

The Circus does not attract many runners usually 2 tables sometimes one , normally made up of 90% university students.
Grosvenor Riverside  ( 1 mile away ) 3 to 4 tables
Salford Mint ( 2 miles away ) 4 to 6 tables
Grosvenor G ( 1 mile away ) 5 to 16 tables 
Grosvenor Soames and Tiberius ( both few yards away ) 2 cash tables , no tournies.
Manchester 235 ( 1/4 mile away ) cash poker

As you can see there are plenty of casinos in the city of Manchester , the Circus being the worst in terms of tournament runners. It was busy a couple of years ago but the management upset a few of the big players and the players took the game out of town.It went from 90+ runners to under 20 runners.

If you used the Grosvenor G as the venue  i'm sure you would have attracted over 100 runners in your cheap festival games , with a similar figure for the £250 main event.For the Pokerstars main event last month they got over 500.If you had promotional material at this venue i'm sure you would have a lot of interest for your seminars , even more had you pitched the price a little lower.

A major problem was that the information was not put across to poker players.All i saw was a few leaflets in a casino where poker is almost non existant.Advertising in the many poker publications would have done the trick too , albeit at a high outlay.

Also if you are having a festival why was there no representative present or a tournament director?

[Bigfella]

I think the website set up to promote this was not really that good. A couple of observations:

Timings

You're not clear when it all takes place. You offer individual sessions at £25, but if someone wanted to come along to just, say, the omaha session you're not telling them what time that will be, who the speaker is, and what it's intended to achieve. So it all looked a bit unclear to me if I'd just wanted to pop along for part of the day. I think a scedule - arrival time, time of sessions etc helps people picture in their mind what they are paying for.

Speakers

Advertising an event for £200 and then saying "if anyone wants to be a speaker let us know" suggests the day is not fully complete. By all means search out additional speakers, but I think you'd be better off doing that away from the site asking people to spend their money.

I think there is a market for this type of event but promotion is everything - I expect if Sky Poker offered one they'd be full pretty quickly. That also highlights another challenge, as places like Sky, APAT, Blonde all have thriving forums where people know each other and will  tend to self promote events like this.

Unless there is some other site I am missing I do believe this was poorly marketed and you should look at that closely if you want to repeat.

Good luck with the venture.

[StuartHopkin]

In terms of the academy, you chose the wrong people.

The old guard don't command that much respect. The reality is that all the kids who are crushing it chat to one another and are way ahead of the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they could teach, just that they play great.

Like dubai said, you need to define your market place better. I think less experienced older players who almost exclusively play live will be your target audience. Then price and market accordingly

Not sure I agree.  Some of the 'old guard' would be great for this sort of thing.  It's not always about getting the best to teach, and it's not always about learning that last 5% that separates the top guys.  It's stuff that lots of people can teach, people can learn a little, and they can take some fun from it.

From the sound of things it's the tournies that were lacking.

i wouldnt pay what they were asking to listen to their tutors when you can get a years worth of subscription to PXF or similar for the same money and learn much more from better players

I don't think you're their target market to be fair though.

So what is their target market?

A lot of recreational players who don't spend too much time online.  Maybe poker in the pub players, some APATers, those who watch Sky Poker regularly, etc. 

If you were an amateur photographer, would there be any harm in you going to a photography class run by someone who knows their stuff because they've got a fair bit of experience and have made a living from it, even though there are far better photographers out there?

I think £200 would be a lot for pub players, and the majority of apat/sky players?

Just using your example, would you not class photography as a subject much more suited to being taught, with the teachings and teachers worthyness being much more easily measured?

Also if he is making a happy living from taking photo's why does he want to teach me his tricks?

Not saying it's not a lot to them.  But a fun day, and they might learn a bit (or even feel like they've learned loads) and it's worthwhile.

Why do they want to teach?  There are lots of reasons.  They get paid for it.  It makes a change from the usual work (that they might have been doing for decades).  If you were going to learn karate, would you question why the karate instructor was teaching a class and not studying for those few hours?

As for the photography - a day course with a great photographer probably isn't the best way to learn - but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad way.

Becoming a karate instructor is part of the learning process and in theory your progress as an instructor is monitored by those above you.
Becoming a poker instructor probably doesnt involve the same growth for the instructor, they also have no one watching to evaluate the quality of their instructing.

Which I actually think is an interestingly suitable comparison.

[kinboshi]

In terms of the academy, you chose the wrong people.

The old guard don't command that much respect. The reality is that all the kids who are crushing it chat to one another and are way ahead of the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they could teach, just that they play great.

Like dubai said, you need to define your market place better. I think less experienced older players who almost exclusively play live will be your target audience. Then price and market accordingly

Not sure I agree.  Some of the 'old guard' would be great for this sort of thing.  It's not always about getting the best to teach, and it's not always about learning that last 5% that separates the top guys.  It's stuff that lots of people can teach, people can learn a little, and they can take some fun from it.

From the sound of things it's the tournies that were lacking.

i wouldnt pay what they were asking to listen to their tutors when you can get a years worth of subscription to PXF or similar for the same money and learn much more from better players

I don't think you're their target market to be fair though.

So what is their target market?

A lot of recreational players who don't spend too much time online.  Maybe poker in the pub players, some APATers, those who watch Sky Poker regularly, etc. 

If you were an amateur photographer, would there be any harm in you going to a photography class run by someone who knows their stuff because they've got a fair bit of experience and have made a living from it, even though there are far better photographers out there?

I think £200 would be a lot for pub players, and the majority of apat/sky players?

Just using your example, would you not class photography as a subject much more suited to being taught, with the teachings and teachers worthyness being much more easily measured?

Also if he is making a happy living from taking photo's why does he want to teach me his tricks?

Not saying it's not a lot to them.  But a fun day, and they might learn a bit (or even feel like they've learned loads) and it's worthwhile.

Why do they want to teach?  There are lots of reasons.  They get paid for it.  It makes a change from the usual work (that they might have been doing for decades).  If you were going to learn karate, would you question why the karate instructor was teaching a class and not studying for those few hours?

As for the photography - a day course with a great photographer probably isn't the best way to learn - but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad way.

Becoming a karate instructor is part of the learning process and in theory your progress as an instructor is monitored by those above you.
Becoming a poker instructor probably doesnt involve the same growth for the instructor, they also have no one watching to evaluate the quality of their instructing.

Which I actually think is an interestingly suitable comparison.

Nah, you don't have to instruct to grade or get higher belts.  It's just that those who have experience seem to want to pass it on (for financial reasons too).  Also, there are loads of karate instructors who aren't evaluated - in fact there's nothing stopping you starting up a weekend course and charging £200 for students.  You can say you're a black belt at this and that, and there's no governing body to say you are or aren't what you say you are.

People still attend these sorts of courses, or clubs where the instructors aren't particularly good. 

[StuartHopkin]

In terms of the academy, you chose the wrong people.

The old guard don't command that much respect. The reality is that all the kids who are crushing it chat to one another and are way ahead of the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they could teach, just that they play great.

Like dubai said, you need to define your market place better. I think less experienced older players who almost exclusively play live will be your target audience. Then price and market accordingly

Not sure I agree.  Some of the 'old guard' would be great for this sort of thing.  It's not always about getting the best to teach, and it's not always about learning that last 5% that separates the top guys.  It's stuff that lots of people can teach, people can learn a little, and they can take some fun from it.

From the sound of things it's the tournies that were lacking.

i wouldnt pay what they were asking to listen to their tutors when you can get a years worth of subscription to PXF or similar for the same money and learn much more from better players

I don't think you're their target market to be fair though.

So what is their target market?

A lot of recreational players who don't spend too much time online.  Maybe poker in the pub players, some APATers, those who watch Sky Poker regularly, etc. 

If you were an amateur photographer, would there be any harm in you going to a photography class run by someone who knows their stuff because they've got a fair bit of experience and have made a living from it, even though there are far better photographers out there?

I think £200 would be a lot for pub players, and the majority of apat/sky players?

Just using your example, would you not class photography as a subject much more suited to being taught, with the teachings and teachers worthyness being much more easily measured?

Also if he is making a happy living from taking photo's why does he want to teach me his tricks?

Not saying it's not a lot to them.  But a fun day, and they might learn a bit (or even feel like they've learned loads) and it's worthwhile.

Why do they want to teach?  There are lots of reasons.  They get paid for it.  It makes a change from the usual work (that they might have been doing for decades).  If you were going to learn karate, would you question why the karate instructor was teaching a class and not studying for those few hours?

As for the photography - a day course with a great photographer probably isn't the best way to learn - but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad way.

Becoming a karate instructor is part of the learning process and in theory your progress as an instructor is monitored by those above you.
Becoming a poker instructor probably doesnt involve the same growth for the instructor, they also have no one watching to evaluate the quality of their instructing.

Which I actually think is an interestingly suitable comparison.

Nah, you don't have to instruct to grade or get higher belts.  It's just that those who have experience seem to want to pass it on (for financial reasons too).  Also, there are loads of karate instructors who aren't evaluated - in fact there's nothing stopping you starting up a weekend course and charging £200 for students.  You can say you're a black belt at this and that, and there's no governing body to say you are or aren't what you say you are.

People still attend these sorts of courses, or clubs where the instructors aren't particularly good. 

Depends on where you train.

[BAM]

I agree with Guy

Plus Manchester is a bit of a wierd choice and if it was at the G it has an increasingly bad rep and players are not going there anymore.  Why don't you do it somewhere more central like Aberdeen or something.

[ACE2M]

Poker academy's are shit tbh. I went to one once and it was a laugh because of the people there but did i learn anything? did i balls.

One to one with other players, books, studying yours and others play are how you learn poker. The average low stakes casino player is not the kind of person who goes and sits in a seminar voluntarily very often.