Sunday 500. TT awkward spot vs Strong opening range.

[hatthehole]

3 bet calling.  i very much doubt any1 is only piling TT+ AK+ this late on a sunday. we need 37.5% v his jamming range to call.   if hes jaming TT+ AK+ 100% and AQ 62% of the time or more we have 37.6% equity.

OK but in that case we would need villain to be opening a >8% range to make 3b/call better than just folding, ignoring the chances of someone waking up with QQ+ behind. Most people do I guess, but I think this thread exists because stato felt this guy isn't opening that wide.

ye ur right, i dont think he is opening as wide as 8%.  although if hes piling AQ+ 99+ we only need him to be opening 6.5%.  i would say almost regs in the 500 are opening at least 6.5% and piling AQ+ 99+.

if you have a tight image and you think the opener is really tight its probably a fold when you consider ppl finding it cold.

interesting spot, in the past ive alway auto 3bet called here.

[SuuPRlim]

my point was how is it possible in a circumstance that someone is opening a tight(er) range that 3bet/folding a hand that WILL have notable equity vs a 4b jam range (however tight it is realistically) can ever be better than 3bet/call or folding. Surely the only way this is true is if the gap between the range he opens and the range he 4b/jams is quite significant, making a 3bet/fold with ATC profitable.

Are there EVER really any spots like this anymore with competent regular players in high stakes tournaments? I obviously don't know because i play online MTT's so infrequently but I find it really hard to believe.

I was also asking the sicko's ITT if we find ourselves in a spot where we can 3bet/fold ATC (this has to be the case here with no blockers to a premium 4b/jam range and little chance of being peeled, like you said earlier the argument for 3b/f TT is the same for 72o in this case) how detrimental to play is having a hand that COULD actually be in good shape vs his 4bet range - if he jams 99, AK and AQ given that folding TT vs that range once we've 3bet is a pretty significant mistake, whereas if we had 72o there would be no mistakes in folding to the 4b jam.

So is TT a worse/better/equal hand to 3b/f than 72o in this spot?

Given a good reg should realise we're 3bet/folding rarely, our 3bet range should be super tight?

[rfgqqabc]

my point was how is it possible in a circumstance that someone is opening a tight(er) range that 3bet/folding a hand that WILL have notable equity vs a 4b jam range (however tight it is realistically) can ever be better than 3bet/call or folding. Surely the only way this is true is if the gap between the range he opens and the range he 4b/jams is quite significant, making a 3bet/fold with ATC profitable.

Are there EVER really any spots like this anymore with competent regular players in high stakes tournaments? I obviously don't know because i play online MTT's so infrequently but I find it really hard to believe.

I was also asking the sicko's ITT if we find ourselves in a spot where we can 3bet/fold ATC (this has to be the case here with no blockers to a premium 4b/jam range and little chance of being peeled, like you said earlier the argument for 3b/f TT is the same for 72o in this case) how detrimental to play is having a hand that COULD actually be in good shape vs his 4bet range - if he jams 99, AK and AQ given that folding TT vs that range once we've 3bet is a pretty significant mistake, whereas if we had 72o there would be no mistakes in folding to the 4b jam.

So is TT a worse/better/equal hand to 3b/f than 72o in this spot?

Given a good reg should realise we're 3bet/folding rarely, our 3bet range should be super tight?

Shouldn't our 3bet range be polarised here to like 65% blockers 35% JJ+AK+? I mean i understand in theory people should only open 6.5% or w/e here, but it seems in practice people do not. There are a million factors here, such as how deep in the tourney, current table softness, future table expectations etc, that the reg might be taking into account. How does he perceive you stato? This looks as grey area as possible, just flip a coin and whichever one it lands on, or you want it to land on the most, choose.

[skolsuper]

my point was how is it possible in a circumstance that someone is opening a tight(er) range that 3bet/folding a hand that WILL have notable equity vs a 4b jam range (however tight it is realistically) can ever be better than 3bet/call or folding. Surely the only way this is true is if the gap between the range he opens and the range he 4b/jams is quite significant, making a 3bet/fold with ATC profitable.

Yep.

Are there EVER really any spots like this anymore with competent regular players in high stakes tournaments? I obviously don't know because i play online MTT's so infrequently but I find it really hard to believe.

You will find these spots when playing against players who refuse to adjust, if you know their tendencies. This would also come up reasonably often if you had more information than the other guy, e.g. you're on a new username on a network like ongame/ipoker (or are doing something more nefarious)

I was also asking the sicko's ITT if we find ourselves in a spot where we can 3bet/fold ATC (this has to be the case here with no blockers to a premium 4b/jam range and little chance of being peeled, like you said earlier the argument for 3b/f TT is the same for 72o in this case) how detrimental to play is having a hand that COULD actually be in good shape vs his 4bet range - if he jams 99, AK and AQ given that folding TT vs that range once we've 3bet is a pretty significant mistake, whereas if we had 72o there would be no mistakes in folding to the 4b jam.

So is TT a worse/better/equal hand to 3b/f than 72o in this spot?

Pretty much equal. If we're getting 6/4 on a call and we have 39% equity, it's still a fold. It's not as much of a fold as if we have 25% equity, but it's still a fold. This only applies if you ignore uncertainty, which as doobs post shows, will turn a 3b/f with TT into a 3b/c, but presumably wouldn't do the same for 72o. BUT if you assume you have 39% equity and that is what you have, then no there is no difference between TT and 72o.

Where I think you might be tying yourself up in knots is that if we always took what looked like ATC 3b/f spots with ATC, we'd be 3betting a lot, and the chances that our opponents adjust and we'll be wrong about their ranges increase. So, acknowledging the fact that we don't have perfect information, we only 3b/f some of the time when we see a good spot, and if we're gonna do that, we'll help our odds by choosing hands that have blockers, i.e. not TT or 72o.

Given a good reg should realise we're 3bet/folding rarely, our 3bet range should be super tight?

Umm, no? Our 3bet range should be super tight (imo) because the villain's opening range is super tight.

Shouldn't our 3bet range be polarised here to like 65% blockers 35% JJ+AK+? I mean i understand in theory people should only open 6.5% or w/e here, but it seems in practice people do not. There are a million factors here, such as how deep in the tourney, current table softness, future table expectations etc, that the reg might be taking into account. How does he perceive you stato? This looks as grey area as possible, just flip a coin and whichever one it lands on, or you want it to land on the most, choose.

I completely disagree with this stuff, trigg kept saying this as well, it's a cop-out imo. There aren't a million factors here, you have 20bbs UTG, you need to be playing more-or-less a certain way, to quote Stu "Honeybadger" Barnett's favourite line, "the maths is not very forgiving here". If you're looking left and assessing how tight/loose each player is or thinking about 'future table expectation' when deciding on your 20bb UTG opening range, you are wasting time, because the adjustments you can legitimately make would be so small.

[rfgqqabc]

Shouldn't our 3bet range be polarised here to like 65% blockers 35% JJ+AK+? I mean i understand in theory people should only open 6.5% or w/e here, but it seems in practice people do not. There are a million factors here, such as how deep in the tourney, current table softness, future table expectations etc, that the reg might be taking into account. How does he perceive you stato? This looks as grey area as possible, just flip a coin and whichever one it lands on, or you want it to land on the most, choose.

I completely disagree with this stuff, trigg kept saying this as well, it's a cop-out imo. There aren't a million factors here, you have 20bbs UTG, you need to be playing more-or-less a certain way, to quote Stu "Honeybadger" Barnett's favourite line, "the maths is not very forgiving here". If you're looking left and assessing how tight/loose each player is or thinking about 'future table expectation' when deciding on your 20bb UTG opening range, you are wasting time, because the adjustments you can legitimately make would be so small.

Surely Stato/reg have had time to go, 3,4,5,6 are sat entries/rec player 7,8 unknown 1,2,9 good tight regs. Its not like he has to make all of his decisions at the exact moment the hand has been dealt. Having said that, completely get what your saying here.

[TL900]

5 are sat entries/rec player

Skilled G is not a sat entry/rec player lol.

[NigDawG]

Also ive spoken to 6/7 people on skype including middy, marc, bramm and all agree villain in the hand is a bad reg.

Lol def haven't spoken to me about this or him. Not sure what notes I have on villain but yh he is a reg. I won't claim to have done any math on this at all but from experience TT is going to be bottom of my range readless, which means folding is never going to be that far away from the best option. Majority of his 4b shove range is AK/AQ (I assume no1 folds either hand to me, because they just never do) so that's why 3b/c but yh quite a few people wont be opening wide enough to make 3betting gd in the first place I guess. Def be surprised how much people "try to get one through" though, some know how strong the open looks and some just don't care, after all they haven't paid their entry to fold JTs or w/e.

3b/f here would be something I would never do rather have KJo or something but even then it's not that gd a spot.

[rfgqqabc]

5 are sat entries/rec player

Skilled G is not a sat entry/rec player lol.

Was hypothetical.

[Oxford_HRV]

right I get the theory behind why 3b calling isn't so optimal here with the blockers/combos situation, but is flatting pre turning our hand face upthat were playing a medium pair, are we more likely going to have him jam his entire range on the flop?, and for what it's worth we could pick up a nice flop with equity and if not we can simply fold here. Ofc he is opening tight but I'm more inclined to say at this level sure he knows that everyone knows his stack is just pre flop range territory and their isn't any room for 'play' so in effect he would be more inclined to jam his non pocket pairs on the flop just to see the run out, giving us a possibly more optimal call? Nonetheless I can see the villain min opening more of a range than JJ+AK

[youthnkzR]

right I get the theory behind why 3b calling isn't so optimal here with the blockers/combos situation, but is flatting pre turning our hand face upthat were playing a medium pair, are we more likely going to have him jam his entire range on the flop?, and for what it's worth we could pick up a nice flop with equity and if not we can simply fold here. Ofc he is opening tight but I'm more inclined to say at this level sure he knows that everyone knows his stack is just pre flop range territory and their isn't any room for 'play' so in effect he would be more inclined to jam his non pocket pairs on the flop just to see the run out, giving us a possibly more optimal call? Nonetheless I can see the villain min opening more of a range than JJ+AK

Its the sunday 500 vs a reg..

[Oxford_HRV]

* so in effect would he ...
Must just be the gambler in me that wants to see a flop, I haven't got stove or flopzilla  but I presume an opening range of 77+ AJ would not be ahead on most flops against TT? Just because he is a reg doesn't mean he is lord of the nits. A 20bb stack is a 20bb stack at the end of the day. And you need to accumulate chips.
out of game analysis we never have the best good old fashioned feeling of what he is opening so I 'presume' (lol) stato had the best line here

[SuuPRlim]

my point was how is it possible in a circumstance that someone is opening a tight(er) range that 3bet/folding a hand that WILL have notable equity vs a 4b jam range (however tight it is realistically) can ever be better than 3bet/call or folding. Surely the only way this is true is if the gap between the range he opens and the range he 4b/jams is quite significant, making a 3bet/fold with ATC profitable.

Yep.

Are there EVER really any spots like this anymore with competent regular players in high stakes tournaments? I obviously don't know because i play online MTT's so infrequently but I find it really hard to believe.

You will find these spots when playing against players who refuse to adjust, if you know their tendencies. This would also come up reasonably often if you had more information than the other guy, e.g. you're on a new username on a network like ongame/ipoker (or are doing something more nefarious)

I was also asking the sicko's ITT if we find ourselves in a spot where we can 3bet/fold ATC (this has to be the case here with no blockers to a premium 4b/jam range and little chance of being peeled, like you said earlier the argument for 3b/f TT is the same for 72o in this case) how detrimental to play is having a hand that COULD actually be in good shape vs his 4bet range - if he jams 99, AK and AQ given that folding TT vs that range once we've 3bet is a pretty significant mistake, whereas if we had 72o there would be no mistakes in folding to the 4b jam.

So is TT a worse/better/equal hand to 3b/f than 72o in this spot?

Pretty much equal. If we're getting 6/4 on a call and we have 39% equity, it's still a fold. It's not as much of a fold as if we have 25% equity, but it's still a fold. This only applies if you ignore uncertainty, which as doobs post shows, will turn a 3b/f with TT into a 3b/c, but presumably wouldn't do the same for 72o. BUT if you assume you have 39% equity and that is what you have, then no there is no difference between TT and 72o.

Where I think you might be tying yourself up in knots is that if we always took what looked like ATC 3b/f spots with ATC, we'd be 3betting a lot, and the chances that our opponents adjust and we'll be wrong about their ranges increase. So, acknowledging the fact that we don't have perfect information, we only 3b/f some of the time when we see a good spot, and if we're gonna do that, we'll help our odds by choosing hands that have blockers, i.e. not TT or 72o.

Given a good reg should realise we're 3bet/folding rarely, our 3bet range should be super tight?

Umm, no? Our 3bet range should be super tight (imo) because the villain's opening range is super tight.

Shouldn't our 3bet range be polarised here to like 65% blockers 35% JJ+AK+? I mean i understand in theory people should only open 6.5% or w/e here, but it seems in practice people do not. There are a million factors here, such as how deep in the tourney, current table softness, future table expectations etc, that the reg might be taking into account. How does he perceive you stato? This looks as grey area as possible, just flip a coin and whichever one it lands on, or you want it to land on the most, choose.

I completely disagree with this stuff, trigg kept saying this as well, it's a cop-out imo. There aren't a million factors here, you have 20bbs UTG, you need to be playing more-or-less a certain way, to quote Stu "Honeybadger" Barnett's favourite line, "the maths is not very forgiving here". If you're looking left and assessing how tight/loose each player is or thinking about 'future table expectation' when deciding on your 20bb UTG opening range, you are wasting time, because the adjustments you can legitimately make would be so small.

Thank you James Keys (and middy who had similar discussion with me on skype about this) for taking the time. All very good

[youthnkzR]

* so in effect would he ...
Must just be the gambler in me that wants to see a flop, I haven't got stove or flopzilla  but I presume an opening range of 77+ AJ would not be ahead on most flops against TT? Just because he is a reg doesn't mean he is lord of the nits. A 20bb stack is a 20bb stack at the end of the day. And you need to accumulate chips.
out of game analysis we never have the best good old fashioned feeling of what he is opening so I 'presume' (lol) stato had the best line here

He possibly is openin lighter then most people suggest on here, I know for a fact I am! I just mean he's not going to just stick it straight in our eye on the flop with an AK.. Etc.. As u suggested before! People don't even do that at low mtts never mind one of the toughest few mtts stars have running!!

[skolsuper]

Also ive spoken to 6/7 people on skype including middy, marc, bramm and all agree villain in the hand is a bad reg.

Lol def haven't spoken to me about this or him. Not sure what notes I have on villain but yh he is a reg. I won't claim to have done any math on this at all but from experience TT is going to be bottom of my range readless, which means folding is never going to be that far away from the best option. Majority of his 4b shove range is AK/AQ (I assume no1 folds either hand to me, because they just never do) so that's why 3b/c but yh quite a few people wont be opening wide enough to make 3betting gd in the first place I guess. Def be surprised how much people "try to get one through" though, some know how strong the open looks and some just don't care, after all they haven't paid their entry to fold JTs or w/e.

3b/f here would be something I would never do rather have KJo or something but even then it's not that gd a spot.

Obv trigg was talking about your dad.

[titaniumbean]

Also ive spoken to 6/7 people on skype including middy, marc, bramm and all agree villain in the hand is a bad reg.

Lol def haven't spoken to me about this or him. Not sure what notes I have on villain but yh he is a reg. I won't claim to have done any math on this at all but from experience TT is going to be bottom of my range readless, which means folding is never going to be that far away from the best option. Majority of his 4b shove range is AK/AQ (I assume no1 folds either hand to me, because they just never do) so that's why 3b/c but yh quite a few people wont be opening wide enough to make 3betting gd in the first place I guess. Def be surprised how much people "try to get one through" though, some know how strong the open looks and some just don't care, after all they haven't paid their entry to fold JTs or w/e.

3b/f here would be something I would never do rather have KJo or something but even then it's not that gd a spot.

Obv trigg was talking about your dad.