Muslim world overreaction ?

[nirvana]

Sigh, why do I keep replying to these types of thread.

True removing religion would not end all that is wrong with the world but it would come closer than removing or changing anything else. When people honestly believe that they are doing a gods will you can justify anything. Without religion there would be less wars and people would just generally be nicer. I am not going to bother listing the problems caused by religion as you know them. A few people would find another excuse to be tossers but the majority of the issues caused by religion just would not happen. These people honestly think they are doing good somehow.

It's not the people (in the main), people are mostly good and try to do what is right "Religion Posions Everything".

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... pretty endless list. This common assertion that without religion there would be greater harmony in the world is so absurdly fallacious I'm surprised thinking people still make it

People are not that far evolved from the basic warring, plundering, take what you need, atavistic savages we always were.

A much more convincing argument is that religion, for the most part, civilises us.

[kinboshi]

Hitler was a Christian.

[Rod]

Sigh, why do I keep replying to these types of thread.

True removing religion would not end all that is wrong with the world but it would come closer than removing or changing anything else. When people honestly believe that they are doing a gods will you can justify anything. Without religion there would be less wars and people would just generally be nicer. I am not going to bother listing the problems caused by religion as you know them. A few people would find another excuse to be tossers but the majority of the issues caused by religion just would not happen. These people honestly think they are doing good somehow.

It's not the people (in the main), people are mostly good and try to do what is right "Religion Posions Everything".

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... pretty endless list. This common assertion that without religion there would be greater harmony in the world is so absurdly fallacious I'm surprised thinking people still make it

People are not that far evolved from the basic warring, plundering, take what you need, atavistic savages we always were.

A much more convincing argument is that religion, for the most part, civilises us.

We don't need Religion to civilise us. We became civilsed by understanding to further ourselves as a race we needed to co-operate and work for the good of each other. It helps us by making our lives better and more enjoyable. We found this also helps other people.

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are good examples of why there would still be evil in the world without religion, thats not in question and to claim otherwise would be silly.

Look at the world at the moment and think about if the parts of it that have a heavy influence from religion are civilsed by it (Saudi Arabia, Iran Pakistan etc). Or the parts of the world that are no longer heavily influenced by it but used to be are now more or less civilsed (UK, France for example). I think the answer is quite easy. I can't think of an example of a county where bvecoming "more religious" has made it more civilized.

Hitler was a Christian.

Yeah, he basically was although Christians will actually tell you he wasn't.

At the very least though he used religion to justify some of his actions. He is another example of somebody who would probably have found some other excuse anyway but religion helpfully provided him with one.

[nirvana]

Hitler was a Christian.

Tosser, really, you are

[nirvana]

Hitler was massively into the occult - to say he was a christian shows how delusional this type of thinking is.

I'm open enough to recognise that religion causes a great deal of problems, but the root of that is man, not god or religion per se.

Are y'all really thick, or just pretending

[Rod]

Hitler was massively into the occult - to say he was a christian shows how delusional this type of thinking is.

I'm open enough to recognise that religion causes a great deal of problems, but the root of that is man, not god or religion per se.

Are y'all really thick, or just pretending

True, but replace the word evil with good and it is equally true.

I would also recognize that religion has done good in the world, not as much good as it has done bad but yes it has done good. It may be true to say it does more good than bad in this country currently. Worldwide though it causes more harm than good and historically it has also. I still stand by the point that civilized countries tend to be less religious. Happy to be corrected on that if anybody has an example.

The fact is that yes man is what causes evil. Religion is a good (man made) tool to be used to justify it though, you can get the various religious text to support almost any view you want it too. So yes whilst evil is 100% caused by man people are more likely to support somebody who is claiming to be working towards the goal of an all powerful god. You can justify stoning women for not being virgins on their wedding night and executions for blasphemy based on this. These things are happening in the world today because of religion and only because of religion.

Did Hitler believe the Christian claims? I have no idea and it doesn't matter he claimed to be and people believed him and therefore some people who might have stopped and thought about it just followed him.

Also the statement Hitler was a Christian is a fact. He was a member of the Catholic Church and was never excommunicated. So he was, the theological argument as to what he actually believed is not relevant here. As far as most people were concerned he was religious.

[kinboshi]

Hitler was a Christian.

Tosser, really, you are

Good argument.  Well done.

[nirvana]

Hitler was a Christian.

Tosser, really, you are

Good argument.  Well done.

Whereas you would need to work quite hard to show Hitler was a christian, i wouldn't have to try quite so hard to back up my assertion

Pretty powerful argument imo

[nirvana]

Hitler was massively into the occult - to say he was a christian shows how delusional this type of thinking is.

I'm open enough to recognise that religion causes a great deal of problems, but the root of that is man, not god or religion per se.

Are y'all really thick, or just pretending

True, but replace the word evil with good and it is equally true.

I would also recognize that religion has done good in the world, not as much good as it has done bad but yes it has done good. It may be true to say it does more good than bad in this country currently. Worldwide though it causes more harm than good and historically it has also. I still stand by the point that civilized countries tend to be less religious. Happy to be corrected on that if anybody has an example.

The fact is that yes man is what causes evil. Religion is a good (man made) tool to be used to justify it though, you can get the various religious text to support almost any view you want it too. So yes whilst evil is 100% caused by man people are more likely to support somebody who is claiming to be working towards the goal of an all powerful god. You can justify stoning women for not being virgins on their wedding night and executions for blasphemy based on this. These things are happening in the world today because of religion and only because of religion.

Did Hitler believe the Christian claims? I have no idea and it doesn't matter he claimed to be and people believed him and therefore some people who might have stopped and thought about it just followed him.

Also the statement Hitler was a Christian is a fact. He was a member of the Catholic Church and was never excommunicated. So he was, the theological argument as to what he actually believed is not relevant here. As far as most people were concerned he was religious.

tbf, being a member of the catholic church does not necessarily mean you are a Christian and so of course the theological argument is relevant. If you want to set the bounds of what can and can't be debated then you render debate meaningless... which of course this is.

There is nowt so dogmatic as anti dogmatists

[Rod]

Hitler was massively into the occult - to say he was a christian shows how delusional this type of thinking is.

I'm open enough to recognise that religion causes a great deal of problems, but the root of that is man, not god or religion per se.

Are y'all really thick, or just pretending

True, but replace the word evil with good and it is equally true.

I would also recognize that religion has done good in the world, not as much good as it has done bad but yes it has done good. It may be true to say it does more good than bad in this country currently. Worldwide though it causes more harm than good and historically it has also. I still stand by the point that civilized countries tend to be less religious. Happy to be corrected on that if anybody has an example.

The fact is that yes man is what causes evil. Religion is a good (man made) tool to be used to justify it though, you can get the various religious text to support almost any view you want it too. So yes whilst evil is 100% caused by man people are more likely to support somebody who is claiming to be working towards the goal of an all powerful god. You can justify stoning women for not being virgins on their wedding night and executions for blasphemy based on this. These things are happening in the world today because of religion and only because of religion.

Did Hitler believe the Christian claims? I have no idea and it doesn't matter he claimed to be and people believed him and therefore some people who might have stopped and thought about it just followed him.

Also the statement Hitler was a Christian is a fact. He was a member of the Catholic Church and was never excommunicated. So he was, the theological argument as to what he actually believed is not relevant here. As far as most people were concerned he was religious.

tbf, being a member of the catholic church does not necessarily mean you are a Christian and so of course the theological argument is relevant. If you want to set the bounds of what can and can't be debated then you render debate meaningless... which of course this is.

There is nowt so dogmatic as anti dogmatists

That's true to be fair.

It's also true that being a member of the Catholic or any other church does not make you a Christian I understand it. This is a different argument though isn't it? What somebody actually believes is not relevant (he could have been lying about being a Christian), it's how they make use of religion to manipulate other people.

It's entirely possible Hitler was just using Christianity as a tool, fine then he was not really a Christian. It did not stop him using it as a tool to manipulate people. I am not saying he would not have found some other way of going about it without religion but I would say that he probably influenced some people he otherwise wouldn't have due to them believing that he was doing gods work.

[kinboshi]

Hitler was a Christian.

Tosser, really, you are

Good argument.  Well done.

Whereas you would need to work quite hard to show Hitler was a christian, i wouldn't have to try quite so hard to back up my assertion

Pretty powerful argument imo

No your strawman argument is pathetically weak. If it's evidence you want, why not start with this:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

[Woodsey]

How many days do you reckon we can keep boshi busy for lads?

[rfgqqabc]

Hitler was a Christian.

Tosser, really, you are

Good argument.  Well done.

Whereas you would need to work quite hard to show Hitler was a christian, i wouldn't have to try quite so hard to back up my assertion

Pretty powerful argument imo

No your strawman argument is pathetically weak. If it's evidence you want, why not start with this:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

Taking Mein Kampf or any of Hitlers highly propagandised materials as gospel would be a mistake.

"Adolf Hitler was raised by a Christian Catholic father and a devout Catholic mother; he ceased to participate in the sacraments after childhood. In his book Mein Kampf and in public speeches he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity.[1][2] Prior to World War II Hitler had promoted "positive Christianity", a movement which purged Christianity of its Jewish elements and instilled it with Nazi philosophy.[3] According to the controversial collection of transcripts edited by Martin Bormann, titled Hitler's Table Talk, as well as the testimony of some intimates, Hitler had privately negative views of Christianity. Others reported he was a committed believer.[4][5]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Furthermore your links assertion that Hitler was Christian because he set up the Reich German Church is ridiculous. The Church was set up purely to move the Catholic/Protestants churches away from the general public. By creating this Church, that ignored the bible in favour of Mein Kampf, he prevented another voice in his public's conscience.
_____________________________________________________________

As far as the current violence is concerned, I despise it. However, one has to ask why anyone would create a film that would provoke such anger. It is a chicken and the egg circle, no film = no violence, no extremism = no film

[nirvana]

Hitler was a Christian.

Tosser, really, you are

Good argument.  Well done.

Whereas you would need to work quite hard to show Hitler was a christian, i wouldn't have to try quite so hard to back up my assertion

Pretty powerful argument imo

No your strawman argument is pathetically weak. If it's evidence you want, why not start with this:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

You're really quite insane.

It's like me referring you to a Nazi site as evidence that their racial theories & claims stand up to scrutiny

[nirvana]

Rod,

Obviously I agree with you that 'religion' is hugely used as a 'stick to beat' by sick people. It's undeniable.

My only contention  is that there are plenty of non religious sick people and so fulminating against all religion because some bad people are religious is just illogical.

It's like fulminating against all liverpudlians because of Heysel - makes no sense

Thanks for making the points you make - as ever, interesting.