DTD300 - TT in SB with 32bb Vs Nit open UTG+1

[George2Loose]

But if he's the sort of player to just give up, why would we c/f Q35?

[Ant040689]

I am surprised no one has advocated a cheeky little 3 bet pre to 3325 (or whatever min 3 bet is, can't see OP as I am writing this), gets us a lot more info on the cheap, we can try to gauge the oppositions comfort level, narrow his range down a little bit with his next action and ultimately save some chips. Remember too that even though he has been playing snug all day he could just be getting sick and tired of not getting any hands so to assume hes always strong here can be a mistake. Live poker can be a nasty beast with seeing dreg after dreg hands!

Gives us the momentum to bet out flop on every board basically committing another 3325 again maybe? So 6600 odd invested from a starting stack of 26k sounds fine to me with 20k ish left and 20 odd bbs and we are in a much better spot than I think we would be calling down bets on innocuous boards, without posturing yourself with the rr pre. He rr the bet out on the flop you can assume mighty strength on his part/or a draw? If he calls he can be drawing or slow playing or whatever. But the important thing is that you have so much more info available than if you flat pre and start check calling.

We could also even open check after the rr pre and start scaring him into seeing a turn, thinking you are slow playing a bigger hand, but the important thing is here you have sent an image out pre flop of your hand and he is now respecting you a lot more for your range, rather than the pretty hand range most people call from the sb with here. the suited connectors, any broadway card combo and the lot.

I assume the counter argument is that you are only investing 2k ish with a cheeky call to set mine, but 90% of flops leaves you a little clueless as to where you are (increasing your chances of losing much more than 6k on the flop/turn/river, think that's called reverse implied odds?) whereas putting in the 3 bet helps you a lot more here with 1010, imo.

Interested to read responses as to what people are thinking about my line.

[Mitch]

If we 3bet vs described villain its bordering on a bluff. Think it depends how straight up hes going to be post flop. Like there's obviously always benefits to having initiative in a hand, but his range is generally going to be pretty strong here and were not happy getting it in pre or being able to bet bet jam even when we have an over pair by the river.

It seems that when he doesnt have an over pair to our tens, were making / losing the same money when he hits or misses flop, i.e pre flop raise and c-bet when he gives up, or him peeling our 3bet and folding when he misses the flop. The main negative about 3 betting is when we have to fold to a 4bet and miss the chance to stack aces when we flop a ten, or get him to fold by semi bluffing some good boards for our hand etc.

Call his open, ask Deadman to do a ninja read and go from there imo.

[Ant040689]

I am fine with the 4 bet shove from villain as we sort of know where we are by then without potentially getting stacked by a lot of flops/turns.

Yes we can set mine, but aren't we then sort of negating the pre flop strength of 1010, playing it like you would 22? Does a 40 bbs+ stack deserve that much respect from an early raise?

You say ninja reading skills in this spot, but it is sort of like a shot in the dark with it being hard to get anything with the info available from just flatting, whereas the rr can help a lot more.

Do realise the advantage of check calling the flop especially if villain only half pots it and we can reassess on turn, with it all being smallball poker.

I am not saying i particularly advocate the 3 bet pre but just wondering what views there were on it, and that is fair enough Mitch, I am not sure what I would do in the same spot.

[edgascoigne]

I felt like if I 3b, one of three things would happen. I can't 3b AI as I only get called by better, so, with a sensibly sized 3b...

a) He folds. A good outcome all things considered, though I believe this to be an unlikely outcome and one which means I have merely folded out the parts of his range I dominate (which realistically is only small pairs).
b) He peels. Life is likely to be miserable/concerning on more flops than not. Yes I have the initiative, but I am still playing OOP 30bb deep against what is presumably a pretty strong range.
c) He 4bets (potentially AI). At this point my 3b has essentially become a bluff, as I simply can not justify calling off in this spot against said opponent.

So...we peel. And ck cl the flop.

            (5350, 24k back)

I check call 3k.   (11350, 21k back)

Turn comes the  , so the board now reads:

 

We check and the villain bets 6.1k.

So it looks like preference is towards folding now, owing to the fact that a chap who has played tight/straightforward thus far is bombing again?

What is he repping though? I mean, really? Are we happy giving him credit for having only 77/88/JJ/QQ/KK/AA?

If he is classic (like, old school classic) 'TAG' is there not the possibility that he is firing AK/AQ again here?

Even if he is, is this a spot where it is 'ok' to get bluffed? One of those where it is actually our best option?

Call his open, ask your dad to do a ninja read and go from there imo.

Riiigggghhhtttt.

[outragous76]

you beat 9's thouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 

[MANTIS01]

I felt like if I 3b, one of three things would happen. I can't 3b AI as I only get called by better, so, with a sensibly sized 3b...

a) He folds. A good outcome all things considered, though I believe this to be an unlikely outcome and one which means I have merely folded out the parts of his range I dominate (which realistically is only small pairs).
b) He peels. Life is likely to be miserable/concerning on more flops than not. Yes I have the initiative, but I am still playing OOP 30bb deep against what is presumably a pretty strong range.
c) He 4bets (potentially AI). At this point my 3b has essentially become a bluff, as I simply can not justify calling off in this spot against said opponent.

So...we peel. And ck cl the flop.

             (5350, 24k back)

I check call 3k.   (11350, 21k back)

Turn comes the  , so the board now reads:

 

We check and the villain bets 6.1k.

So it looks like preference is towards folding now, owing to the fact that a chap who has played tight/straightforward thus far is bombing again?

What is he repping though? I mean, really? Are we happy giving him credit for having only 77/88/JJ/QQ/KK/AA?

If he is classic (like, old school classic) 'TAG' is there not the possibility that he is firing AK/AQ again here?

Even if he is, is this a spot where it is 'ok' to get bluffed? One of those where it is actually our best option?

Call his open, ask your dad to do a ninja read and go from there imo.

Riiigggghhhtttt.

Wouldn't give him credit for only those hands but think they make up a big part of his range. Would figure it's less likely for AK/AQ to double barrell into you because you c/c on a 2 4 7 rainbow board. It's also unlikely ur floating oop much with your chips. Villain can't think you paired the flop but knows you have a strong enough hand without a draw to c/c the flop....yet still vbets the turn. From what we know of villain is double barrelling vbet bluffs something to expect or is it more straightforward play he has overpair. I feel ok about getting bluffed here or if he has 9-9.

[cambridgealex]

I felt like if I 3b, one of three things would happen. I can't 3b AI as I only get called by better, so, with a sensibly sized 3b...

a) He folds. A good outcome all things considered, though I believe this to be an unlikely outcome and one which means I have merely folded out the parts of his range I dominate (which realistically is only small pairs).
b) He peels. Life is likely to be miserable/concerning on more flops than not. Yes I have the initiative, but I am still playing OOP 30bb deep against what is presumably a pretty strong range.
c) He 4bets (potentially AI). At this point my 3b has essentially become a bluff, as I simply can not justify calling off in this spot against said opponent.

Spot on logic. I personally think a 3bet would be awful.

[Doobs]

I felt like if I 3b, one of three things would happen. I can't 3b AI as I only get called by better, so, with a sensibly sized 3b...

a) He folds. A good outcome all things considered, though I believe this to be an unlikely outcome and one which means I have merely folded out the parts of his range I dominate (which realistically is only small pairs).
b) He peels. Life is likely to be miserable/concerning on more flops than not. Yes I have the initiative, but I am still playing OOP 30bb deep against what is presumably a pretty strong range.
c) He 4bets (potentially AI). At this point my 3b has essentially become a bluff, as I simply can not justify calling off in this spot against said opponent.

Spot on logic. I personally think a 3bet would be awful.

This logic can't be spot on, as it is a little flawed.  There should always be some bluffs in your range, if in this spot the only raise folding hand you have is TT then that 3 bet can't be awful. 

Say I am 3 bet calling AK, AA, KK, QQ and JJ and 3 bet folding TT and AQs, then at least I have some balance in my 3 betting range, and that isn't the same as 3 bet bluff folding a whole bunch of spew.     

I am not saying it is the best action, but if I put my whole range up, it is going to be hard for you to now create an argument that 3 bet folding TT is awful.  I await lots of arguments telling me that I don't need to do this stuff for balance in MTTs!

[cambridgealex]

I felt like if I 3b, one of three things would happen. I can't 3b AI as I only get called by better, so, with a sensibly sized 3b...

a) He folds. A good outcome all things considered, though I believe this to be an unlikely outcome and one which means I have merely folded out the parts of his range I dominate (which realistically is only small pairs).
b) He peels. Life is likely to be miserable/concerning on more flops than not. Yes I have the initiative, but I am still playing OOP 30bb deep against what is presumably a pretty strong range.
c) He 4bets (potentially AI). At this point my 3b has essentially become a bluff, as I simply can not justify calling off in this spot against said opponent.

Spot on logic. I personally think a 3bet would be awful.

This logic can't be spot on, as it is a little flawed.  There should always be some bluffs in your range, if in this spot the only raise folding hand you have is TT then that 3 bet can't be awful. 

Say I am 3 bet calling AK, AA, KK, QQ and JJ and 3 bet folding TT and AQs, then at least I have some balance in my 3 betting range, and that isn't the same as 3 bet bluff folding a whole bunch of spew.     

I am not saying it is the best action, but if I put my whole range up, it is going to be hard for you to now create an argument that 3 bet folding TT is awful.  I await lots of arguments telling me that I don't need to do this stuff for balance in MTTs!

exactly. the logic is spot on because the last thing you need to be in a £300 live mtt is balanced. Having a bluffing range vs a nit utg open is really not necessary (assuming they are an average live bad nit obv)

[Doobs]

I felt like if I 3b, one of three things would happen. I can't 3b AI as I only get called by better, so, with a sensibly sized 3b...

a) He folds. A good outcome all things considered, though I believe this to be an unlikely outcome and one which means I have merely folded out the parts of his range I dominate (which realistically is only small pairs).
b) He peels. Life is likely to be miserable/concerning on more flops than not. Yes I have the initiative, but I am still playing OOP 30bb deep against what is presumably a pretty strong range.
c) He 4bets (potentially AI). At this point my 3b has essentially become a bluff, as I simply can not justify calling off in this spot against said opponent.

Spot on logic. I personally think a 3bet would be awful.

This logic can't be spot on, as it is a little flawed.  There should always be some bluffs in your range, if in this spot the only raise folding hand you have is TT then that 3 bet can't be awful. 

Say I am 3 bet calling AK, AA, KK, QQ and JJ and 3 bet folding TT and AQs, then at least I have some balance in my 3 betting range, and that isn't the same as 3 bet bluff folding a whole bunch of spew.     

I am not saying it is the best action, but if I put my whole range up, it is going to be hard for you to now create an argument that 3 bet folding TT is awful.  I await lots of arguments telling me that I don't need to do this stuff for balance in MTTs!

exactly. the logic is spot on because the last thing you need to be in a £300 live mtt is balanced. Having a bluffing range vs a nit utg open is really not necessary (assuming they are an average live bad nit obv)

He got all his chips in with QQ vs AA early doors.  Don't the bad nits never 4 bet anything but aces?

I could answer your post by pointing out that if you play correctly, then you aren't the one making a mistake. 

But meh... you crush these.

[edgascoigne]

Soooo.....the call pre seems very popular. The call on the flop also, though generally with the logic of if he bombs again we should pass the turn.

 

Nit bets 6.1k into 11350.

At this point....I called.

The river bricked off, it went ck ck and I was good against AQo.

The reason for my posting the hand isn't to dwell on the results....but rather street-by-street as I think each is really quite interesting.

My call on the turn was probably bad...and fwiw once I called the turn I was hero'ing the river if need be...

I don't think he should bomb this turn card....but from his perspective my hand shouldn't be as strong as TT, non? And even with that specific hand general consensus still seems to be that I should fold? So perhaps he is right to bomb again...?!

I'll stick to getting 2-outered by the father on cash. Much simpler!

[cambridgealex]

doobs, are you talking about taking GTO optimal lines and making unexploitable plays?

[MANTIS01]

Don't think it's necessary to balance 3bet vs this oppo. Cautious player only showed AQ and QQ, opening from ep with chips. If we think villain plays big cards and pairs then 3betting only inflates the pot and at best leaves us oop with fewer chips to move about after seeing a flop. I would 3bet this guy for value only as 20% of stack too pricey to risk on anything else imo.

[Doobs]

doobs, are you talking about taking GTO optimal lines and making unexploitable plays?

You can guess what I have been reading recently.  Just have to work out what the optimal lines and correct bluffing ranges are now and I'll be sorted. 

As it is the old me probably calls pre here too.