MTT bvb 20-25bb limping strategy

[SuuPRlim]

Yh obviously practical implementation is far more relevant than theory for this type of strategy, however you defo have a theoretical problem with this strategy, by having no limp/call range you basically allow him to take EVERY hand he would fold to your open and profitably open it. Obviously there is a chance you have selected your range perfectly so he cant open 100% and call off X range and not make money off his open but thats pretty hard to determine.

Obviously most people will assume that you will be limp/calling some and wont just ope 100% but even in a spot where balance and theory application isn't that important I just can't stomach implementing a strategy that allows someone to profitably play 73offsuit against me.

As a reverse on the "balance schmalance" argument why do we need a limp/fold limp/shove strategy, as surely limping K6s and AQo are both worse vacuum plays than just opening?

[TheFruitbat]

Everyone is thinking about this from the perspective that the villain knows our EXACT strategy. Where-as 95% of villains and all the button clickers in the galaxy out there who will just 3x fold QTo/T9o etcetc when we limp shove 23bbs with A3ss, seeing our limp as ''weakness''.

Obv, you could play perfectly vs this strategy and maybe exploit it but only if you know the exact way someone is implementing it.

And and soon as you believe villain has figured it out/can exploit it. You change again?

[cambridgealex]

Everyone is thinking about this from the perspective that the villain knows our EXACT strategy. Where-as 95% of villains and all the button clickers in the galaxy out there who will just 3x fold QTo/T9o etcetc when we limp shove 23bbs with A3ss, seeing our limp as ''weakness''.

Obv, you could play perfectly vs this strategy and maybe exploit it but only if you know the exact way someone is implementing it.

And and soon as you believe villain has figured it out/can exploit it. You change again?

Think this is a good point.

When you were bvb vs bedi I felt like he could/was exploiting that strategy fairly easily, so perhaps you needed to adjust there. but yeh vs randoms its gonna work really well.

how do you know who's figured you out though?!

[TL900]

Dont do it vs anyone with a braincell/that you have say 500 hands on would be fine boundaries imo.

[TheFruitbat]

Lol well think that's a small sample tbf Al. A9o vs AKo basically goes in however you play it? BvsB with 24 bb eff. I won the last 2 pots before that with no s/d.

But I guess just trial and error. Going to be v hard for random good/bad/amazing villain to figure out exactly what your doing with the vvv small shallow BvsB samples?

Think mostly the villains not to use it against are the ones who have a good idea of the exact ranges. Still feel it's going to be hard to exploit fully.


Also, if you realise that the villain is trying to exploit you... Can't you fight back? For e.g If villain is opening 100% 73o for eg, you just shove basically all the hands your limping with? And if you figure out there only raising to induce, you can also shove perfectly vs this range and fold everything else you would of previously shoved?

[Doobs]

Everyone is thinking about this from the perspective that the villain knows our EXACT strategy. Where-as 95% of villains and all the button clickers in the galaxy out there who will just 3x fold QTo/T9o etcetc when we limp shove 23bbs with A3ss, seeing our limp as ''weakness''.

Obv, you could play perfectly vs this strategy and maybe exploit it but only if you know the exact way someone is implementing it.

And and soon as you believe villain has figured it out/can exploit it. You change again?

I don't need to know your strategy to play the limp fold game perfectly. 

[Pugwashed]

Dont do it vs anyone with a braincell/that you have say 500 hands on would be fine boundaries imo.

I'd actually much rather do it vs people I thought weren't idiots.

In this spot, with antes you could be getting 5-1 to just call pre so you when you are limping you probably don't need to be winning the pot that often to make limping profitable and it probably only becomes difficult to balance if you include a raise/fold and raise/call range as well so vs someone good then just completing or folding everything and never opening could work pretty well. Obviously vs people who aren't playing well or that you never play against you don't need to worry too much about balance.

There is a video Sauce123 made recently playing 6max and he opens nothing, just limps or folds everything, when its folded to him n the small blind. It's mostly in the context of 100bb and deeper spots in cash games but the spot does come up against a 20bb stack at one point and a lot of the reasoning seems to apply reasonably well to these spots. (Some of it maybe even more so since you're getting a much better price to just limp with antes)

[TheFruitbat]

Everyone is thinking about this from the perspective that the villain knows our EXACT strategy. Where-as 95% of villains and all the button clickers in the galaxy out there who will just 3x fold QTo/T9o etcetc when we limp shove 23bbs with A3ss, seeing our limp as ''weakness''.

Obv, you could play perfectly vs this strategy and maybe exploit it but only if you know the exact way someone is implementing it.

And and soon as you believe villain has figured it out/can exploit it. You change again?

I don't need to know your strategy to play the limp fold game perfectly. 

Please, tell me more. By 'perfectly', I assume you must know OUR exact ranges?

[Pugwashed]

Everyone is thinking about this from the perspective that the villain knows our EXACT strategy. Where-as 95% of villains and all the button clickers in the galaxy out there who will just 3x fold QTo/T9o etcetc when we limp shove 23bbs with A3ss, seeing our limp as ''weakness''.

Obv, you could play perfectly vs this strategy and maybe exploit it but only if you know the exact way someone is implementing it.

And and soon as you believe villain has figured it out/can exploit it. You change again?

I don't need to know your strategy to play the limp fold game perfectly. 

Please, tell me more. By 'perfectly', I assume you must know OUR exact ranges?

The point is in terms of a perfect strategy, your ranges aren't really important in terms of constructing a perfect unexpltable / balanced / GTO strategy. All that matters is that there is no way for you to exploit his strategy.

[SuuPRlim]

The old "balance doesn't matter here" argument is really annoying because whereas YES it's an MTT, and YES BvB samples are really small if you wanna play an exploitable strategy - like the one suggested ITT then as vacuum savvy as it might be it's just not REALLY right.

You're way better forming a "unexploitable" strategy and developing loads of different exploitative adjustments for different scenario's alongside it (how you change for different players in the BB). That's a much much much better way to play then just coming up with a really flawed GTO strat that has loads of eexploitative merit and saying "well it's a comp so we dont need to worry about that"

If you're going to do that you're better of just deciding "im going to limp/shove this because my big blind seems aggro and will prolly open over my limp a lot" or "I'm going to raise K6s here because he's quite passive and will fold more often than not pre and more often than he should to my flop c-bet" and making every decision in vacuum rather that starting out with a GTO flawwed strategy.

[Pugwashed]

The old "balance doesn't matter here" argument is really annoying because whereas YES it's an MTT, and YES BvB samples are really small if you wanna play an exploitable strategy - like the one suggested ITT then as vacuum savvy as it might be it's just not REALLY right.

You're way better forming a "unexploitable" strategy and developing loads of different exploitative adjustments for different scenario's alongside it (how you change for different players in the BB). That's a much much much better way to play then just coming up with a really flawed GTO strat that has loads of eexploitative merit and saying "well it's a comp so we dont need to worry about that"

If you're going to do that you're better of just deciding "im going to limp/shove this because my big blind seems aggro and will prolly open over my limp a lot" or "I'm going to raise K6s here because he's quite passive and will fold more often than not pre and more often than he should to my flop c-bet" and making every decision in vacuum rather that starting out with a GTO flawwed strategy.

So much this.

If you're gonna use an exploitative strategy then you're playing exploitably. Because of this it's important to understand how you are playing exploitably cos if you don't then it's a pretty big problem when people start exploiting you. If you start from a GTO strategy then you're at least aware of where the unexploitable equilibrium is within your ranges and then its pretty easy to make exploitative adjustments away from that vs different players if you have a good reason

[SuuPRlim]

much nicer way of putting it ^

[MANTIS01]

If you never limp bvb it's a good enough strat

[SuuPRlim]

If you never limp bvb it's a good enough strat

I mean there must be SOME merit to limping BvB sometimes, depending mostly on the stack depths, the guy in the big blind and probably the most important factor, your hand.

One thing you MUST do, if you never limp the sb is fold from there quite a lot, as one of things EVERYONE will notice is that you're opening loads and loads BvB (even if it's just cos you have good hands) if you open 5 striaght BvB hands then nearly any opponent is going to think "wow he opens every time BvB" and will naturally start to call/raise wider - I think this is an adjustment even pretty weak players will make naturally. In fact I think weaker opponents are way more likely to make because it's seen a quite a personal thing attacking someones big blind.

[action man]

the main problem here is that regs will check check behind limps nowadays a lot more than they used to, yeh it means you can complete weaker than you would a few years ago, but youre gonna get floated out of your seat alot and make it pretty difficult post down the streets.