Thatcher dead?

[bobby1]

I wish people would stop praising her for having courage of her conviction.

A good politician listens to arguments and experts on matters which they have little knowledge.

Then decides on the best policies after a period of reflection.

Thatcher just attacked problems like a cow in a china shop - making her mind up quickly and then refusing to back down even when she was proved to be wrong.

That just wasn't true Keith, many people in the Obits praised the fact she took advice and then when a direction was agreed she backed it 100%. Take a look at Thatcher milk snatcher, she spoke against taking milk away but when it was decided it was the policy she backed it up.

When discussing the Falklands invasion Cecil Parkinson was quoted last night as saying the big turning point was when she spoke to the leaders of the forces who gave her differing advice to her cabinet.

She failed to do so with the Poll tax and got that badly wrong and it became beginning of the end.

[TightEnd]

whether pro or anti, there are two sides to a lot of it

Much of twitter obsessed yesterday on Milk snatcher and sneering at her role in removing free school milk (probably because many of the people were kids at the time and that had more relevance to their memory now than bin bags in the streets, no electricity and 3 day working weeks)

The reality was as Education Secretary in 1973-4 when the country was financially on its knees (again) she was told she could not have a budget increase to build more schools.

There was a school place shortage, class sizes were huge & parents no choice of schools for their children. She withdrew the free milk in order to free up funds so she could invest in a program of school building.

[The Camel]

But she did rewrite political history Acid, Thatcherism isn't just a buzz word is it.

Back to my point about looking at the bad side of things, you mentioned unemployment but didn't mention lowering inflation.

You mention selling off council houses and not replacing them but don't accentuate the people that bought their house very cheaply and sold it on later to give them selves a nest egg/money to invest/spend. You give an example of private landlords, it's just looking at one side of the happenings, all the down side. Houses to buy became available down the line because people that had been allowed to buy their council homes could eventually sell.

Of those things tho breaking down the unions and privatisation of companies that improved the level to the consumers were a big success, without doing those things the economy would have continued to stand still. You admit that BG was a bit of a mess, so were lots of other firms then, she took it on to modernise them. These days you can get any amount of phone providers and it's pretty cheap, that's a legacy of the BT privatisation and a free market that was encouraged then. The example of it going bad is probably the rail service which was a shambles when privatised and hasn't really recovered but note that privatisation took place in 1993 when she was no longer in charge.

Watching the various Obituaries on TV last night there was a common theme running thru them in that whenever there was something to be handled she took notice of the experts in that field. It might not be a coincidence that one of the biggest privatisation flops took place soon after she had left office.

You have just kind of shrugged your shoulder at the end and dismissed turning around the economy and eradicating business that were well out of date but if it was that easy then I guess the last two Govt's would have sorted similar problems out easily but they haven't mate.

When she went it was time to go and the Poll Tax was a horrid idea but give me someone that does a lot of good things and some bad things than the current lot who think getting spin doctors to give them quotes full of air or getting their picture taking buying pasties in Greggs is governing.

I remember a story years ago tho when the Tories were trying to appear more in touch with local communities and sent some of the parties heavierweights to various towns and cities around the country. In one of them, with photographers in full flow they wanted to capture one particular Tory in a fish n chip shop photographing him eating fish n chips with the locals. With it all in place he went to the counter and in is lovely posh voice said
'Could I have fish n chips please'
'anything else sir'
' err yes could you put me some of that Guacamole on too' he said pointing at the mushy peas.

Job not done.

Inflation doesn't really matter. As long as income is going up as fast as inflation the only people who suffer by a high inflation rate are those with massive savings.

Unemployment nearly doubled. Enough said.

Selling off council houses was a national disgrace. The whole point of council housing is to provide for people who can't afford to buy. I CBA to look at homeless statistics in the UK, but I would bet heaps it has multiplied massively since 1979.

Privatisation was a massive disaster. Selling the national treasures at a fraction of their true price.

Every time my train is cancelled, my electricity bill goes up by double the inflation rate or my BT internet service goes down, I curse Margaret Thatcher.

Basically if you were rich, young and well educated Thatcher was great for you.

But if you were poor, ill, disabled, gay, poorly educated, a student, a trade union member or worked in the public sector it was 10 years of misery.

[kinboshi]

after the 1970s and hypthesising Michael Foot as Prime Minister supported by the Marxist Union leaders...

what was the real alternative please?


Labour only got elected when Blair adopted Union reform, Privatisation, Monetarism etc..didn't reverse any of it...he added a social justice agenda onto Thatcherism

the idea that there was a realistic alternative at the time is left wing fiction...even many moderate Labour politicians admitted privately the reforms were corrct, merely that they could never be seen to endorse them let alone do them

If she hadn't been born, you are saying there wouldn't have been anyone who could have taken power in '79 and made changes?  Are you also saying that the only choices to be made were the ones she and her government decided upon?  If so, then how is she so great a leader (as is put forward), if that was the only way?

[TightEnd]

Keith Inflation does not matter?

completely delusional!

the "only people that suffer" is a pretty big group!!

[kinboshi]

But she did rewrite political history Acid, Thatcherism isn't just a buzz word is it.

Back to my point about looking at the bad side of things, you mentioned unemployment but didn't mention lowering inflation.

You mention selling off council houses and not replacing them but don't accentuate the people that bought their house very cheaply and sold it on later to give them selves a nest egg/money to invest/spend. You give an example of private landlords, it's just looking at one side of the happenings, all the down side. Houses to buy became available down the line because people that had been allowed to buy their council homes could eventually sell.

Of those things tho breaking down the unions and privatisation of companies that improved the level to the consumers were a big success, without doing those things the economy would have continued to stand still. You admit that BG was a bit of a mess, so were lots of other firms then, she took it on to modernise them. These days you can get any amount of phone providers and it's pretty cheap, that's a legacy of the BT privatisation and a free market that was encouraged then. The example of it going bad is probably the rail service which was a shambles when privatised and hasn't really recovered but note that privatisation took place in 1993 when she was no longer in charge.

Watching the various Obituaries on TV last night there was a common theme running thru them in that whenever there was something to be handled she took notice of the experts in that field. It might not be a coincidence that one of the biggest privatisation flops took place soon after she had left office.

You have just kind of shrugged your shoulder at the end and dismissed turning around the economy and eradicating business that were well out of date but if it was that easy then I guess the last two Govt's would have sorted similar problems out easily but they haven't mate.

When she went it was time to go and the Poll Tax was a horrid idea but give me someone that does a lot of good things and some bad things than the current lot who think getting spin doctors to give them quotes full of air or getting their picture taking buying pasties in Greggs is governing.

I remember a story years ago tho when the Tories were trying to appear more in touch with local communities and sent some of the parties heavierweights to various towns and cities around the country. In one of them, with photographers in full flow they wanted to capture one particular Tory in a fish n chip shop photographing him eating fish n chips with the locals. With it all in place he went to the counter and in is lovely posh voice said
'Could I have fish n chips please'
'anything else sir'
' err yes could you put me some of that Guacamole on too' he said pointing at the mushy peas.

Job not done.

Inflation doesn't really matter. As long as income is going up as fast as inflation the only people who suffer by a high inflation rate are those with massive savings.

Unemployment nearly doubled. Enough said.

Selling off council houses was a national disgrace. The whole point of council housing is to provide for people who can't afford to buy. I CBA to look at homeless statistics in the UK, but I would bet heaps it has multiplied massively since 1979.

Privatisation was a massive disaster. Selling the national treasures at a fraction of their true price.

Every time my train is cancelled, my electricity bill goes up by double the inflation rate or my BT internet service goes down, I curse Margaret Thatcher.

Basically if you were rich, young and well educated Thatcher was great for you.

But if you were poor, ill, disabled, gay, poorly educated, a student, a trade union member or worked in the public sector it was 10 years of misery.

More than 10 years.  The effects are still being felt.

[TightEnd]

after the 1970s and hypthesising Michael Foot as Prime Minister supported by the Marxist Union leaders...

what was the real alternative please?


Labour only got elected when Blair adopted Union reform, Privatisation, Monetarism etc..didn't reverse any of it...he added a social justice agenda onto Thatcherism

the idea that there was a realistic alternative at the time is left wing fiction...even many moderate Labour politicians admitted privately the reforms were corrct, merely that they could never be seen to endorse them let alone do them

If she hadn't been born, you are saying there wouldn't have been anyone who could have taken power in '79 and made changes?  Are you also saying that the only choices to be made were the ones she and her government decided upon?  If so, then how is she so great a leader (as is put forward), if that was the only way?

you are not giving me an alternative!

After the 1970s with massive inflation, huge union power and massive state intervention the country was broken, literally

Lets say in 1979 Labour gets in again, under Michael Foot if not in 79 but by 81...

what happens?


I can tell you, but we'll see if you can get there yourself.

[bobby1]

But she did rewrite political history Acid, Thatcherism isn't just a buzz word is it.

Back to my point about looking at the bad side of things, you mentioned unemployment but didn't mention lowering inflation.

You mention selling off council houses and not replacing them but don't accentuate the people that bought their house very cheaply and sold it on later to give them selves a nest egg/money to invest/spend. You give an example of private landlords, it's just looking at one side of the happenings, all the down side. Houses to buy became available down the line because people that had been allowed to buy their council homes could eventually sell.

Of those things tho breaking down the unions and privatisation of companies that improved the level to the consumers were a big success, without doing those things the economy would have continued to stand still. You admit that BG was a bit of a mess, so were lots of other firms then, she took it on to modernise them. These days you can get any amount of phone providers and it's pretty cheap, that's a legacy of the BT privatisation and a free market that was encouraged then. The example of it going bad is probably the rail service which was a shambles when privatised and hasn't really recovered but note that privatisation took place in 1993 when she was no longer in charge.

Watching the various Obituaries on TV last night there was a common theme running thru them in that whenever there was something to be handled she took notice of the experts in that field. It might not be a coincidence that one of the biggest privatisation flops took place soon after she had left office.

You have just kind of shrugged your shoulder at the end and dismissed turning around the economy and eradicating business that were well out of date but if it was that easy then I guess the last two Govt's would have sorted similar problems out easily but they haven't mate.

When she went it was time to go and the Poll Tax was a horrid idea but give me someone that does a lot of good things and some bad things than the current lot who think getting spin doctors to give them quotes full of air or getting their picture taking buying pasties in Greggs is governing.

I remember a story years ago tho when the Tories were trying to appear more in touch with local communities and sent some of the parties heavierweights to various towns and cities around the country. In one of them, with photographers in full flow they wanted to capture one particular Tory in a fish n chip shop photographing him eating fish n chips with the locals. With it all in place he went to the counter and in is lovely posh voice said
'Could I have fish n chips please'
'anything else sir'
' err yes could you put me some of that Guacamole on too' he said pointing at the mushy peas.

Job not done.

Inflation doesn't really matter. As long as income is going up as fast as inflation the only people who suffer by a high inflation rate are those with massive savings.

Unemployment nearly doubled. Enough said.

Selling off council houses was a national disgrace. The whole point of council housing is to provide for people who can't afford to buy. I CBA to look at homeless statistics in the UK, but I would bet heaps it has multiplied massively since 1979.

Privatisation was a massive disaster. Selling the national treasures at a fraction of their true price.

Every time my train is cancelled, my electricity bill goes up by double the inflation rate or my BT internet service goes down, I curse Margaret Thatcher.

Basically if you were rich, young and well educated Thatcher was great for you.

But if you were poor, ill, disabled, gay, poorly educated, a student, a trade union member or worked in the public sector it was 10 years of misery.

C'mon Keith ' Every time my BT service goes down you blame Margaret Thatcher' ;o)

You cannot have forgotten what a shambles British Rail was.

Service costs get higher every year but now you have a choice to say I'm not accepting this increase and look elsewhere. How expensive do you think telephone charges would be today if a state owned BT were the only provider?

Gas, if only British Gas were providing?

[Simon Galloway]

Ofc inflation matters.  Most of the economic policy in the last 30+ years has been centred on controlling inflation as the number one priority.

In the mid 70s, I think inflation was heading over 20%.  3 or 4 years of that and your spending power has about halved.  That's lots of income increases that you need.  Which is great if your income doubles every 3 or 4 years, but if you are retired/retiring... you are screwed.  If you have a mortgage, you are similarly screwed.  If you rent, well someone pays the mortgage, so your rent goes up.  Savings become increasingly pointless.

And we haven't even touched on the effects of no longer being able to competitively trade internationally.

[Acidmouse]

But she did rewrite political history Acid, Thatcherism isn't just a buzz word is it.

Back to my point about looking at the bad side of things, you mentioned unemployment but didn't mention lowering inflation.

You mention selling off council houses and not replacing them but don't accentuate the people that bought their house very cheaply and sold it on later to give them selves a nest egg/money to invest/spend. You give an example of private landlords, it's just looking at one side of the happenings, all the down side. Houses to buy became available down the line because people that had been allowed to buy their council homes could eventually sell.

Of those things tho breaking down the unions and privatisation of companies that improved the level to the consumers were a big success, without doing those things the economy would have continued to stand still. You admit that BG was a bit of a mess, so were lots of other firms then, she took it on to modernise them. These days you can get any amount of phone providers and it's pretty cheap, that's a legacy of the BT privatisation and a free market that was encouraged then. The example of it going bad is probably the rail service which was a shambles when privatised and hasn't really recovered but note that privatisation took place in 1993 when she was no longer in charge.

Fuk me I try balance it out and get shot down, the only thing you have conceded on this thread is it helped you and your family prosper. I will save my responses for elsewhere. Someone who believes people being able to buy their council houses cheap to sell on at a profit later is a good thing needs serious help.

[bobby1]

But if you were poor, ill, disabled, gay, poorly educated, a student, a trade union member or worked in the public sector it was 10 years of misery.


PS...I was quite a few of these (just to avoid any confusion, gay wasn't one of them) when a lot of people I knew decided they were going to moan about the way the country had changed and just try to get by I decided to use the new opportunities and try to be successful. I didn't quite make it but as someone once said in a discussion on here I am glad I didn't aim low and make it but instead I aimed higher and didn't quite get there.

Its not me me me mentality tho, its I tried tried tried.

[The Camel]

Ofc inflation matters.  Most of the economic policy in the last 30+ years has been centred on controlling inflation as the number one priority.

In the mid 70s, I think inflation was heading over 20%.  3 or 4 years of that and your spending power has about halved.  That's lots of income increases that you need.  Which is great if your income doubles every 3 or 4 years, but if you are retired/retiring... you are screwed.  If you have a mortgage, you are similarly screwed.  If you rent, well someone pays the mortgage, so your rent goes up.  Savings become increasingly pointless.

And we haven't even touched on the effects of no longer being able to competitively trade internationally.

Full employment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Low inflation.

Savings should be essentially pointless, spare money should be used to stimulate the economy not hoarded up "for a rainy day".

[TightEnd]

Full employment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Low inflation.

no Keith that is not correct imo

Unless wages rise faster than inflation, spending power is lower as time goes on and living standards drop for everyone

Meanwhile, anyone relying on savings (pensioners etc) get decimated

Full Employment is not a panacea for an economy's ills unless inflation is far lower than wage growth

[TightEnd]

you'll be pleased to know I have to go offline for the day, lol


This was a good read. very balanced

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22076886

What if Thatcher had never been?

[kinboshi]

The country wasn't fixed under Thatcher - that's the myth that many seem to want to perpetuate.



In 1979, 13.4% of the population lived below 60% of median incomes before housing costs. By 1990, it had gone up to 22.2%, or 12.2m people, with huge rises in the mid-1980s.

(data from Institute for Fiscal Studies)


The deregulation of the financial industry was an inevitably flawed idea - with the boom followed by the bust.  But the rich got richer, and for many the ends justified the means.

Under Thatcher oppressive dictatorial regimes racked up massive debt to the UK (a lot of which had to be written off, such as with Iraq) for weapons and military equipment - that was obviously used to oppress and murder civilians in these countries.  Indonesia, Iraq, Argentina, Zimbabwe, etc., were all recipients of these arms.  It's good to see that UK tax-payers' money was helping dictators build up their military might, place these countries under crushing debt that their people are still paying for long after their brutal oppressors have gone.

But as long as those with the money made some more, that's all OK.