Another PLO Tourney

[Karabiner]

I'm sure that you are right Tony.

I was getting a little frustrated by the constant bullying which allowed me to briefly lose my sense of perspective and in an instant the dynamic of the table had changed for me.

I 3-bet my KKQ9 ss to 64k and all fold to the bully who peels naturally.

On a QT4r he sets me in for my last 55k and reveals a comely Q833 ds, so I was in really good shape to overcome my earlier transgression.

Well until the runout came hh to give him a flush

I could almost hear the sniggering of the shortstacks....

[tikay]

I'm sure that you are right Tony.

I was getting a little frustrated by the constant bullying which allowed me to briefly lose my sense of perspective and in an instant the dynamic of the table had changed for me.

I 3-bet my KKQ9 ss to 64k and all fold to the bully who peels naturally.

On a QT4r he sets me in for my last 55k and reveals a comely Q833 ds, so I was in really good shape to overcome my earlier transgression.

Well until the runout came hh to give him a flush

I could almost hear the sniggering of the shortstacks....

So be it, it does not matter. This was the spot, the rest is variance.

The only thing I do different here is full-pot it pre. At this stage, I want to play for stacks, win or lose.

The matter of "big cards" was raised earlier. For me, this is the essence at THIS stage. Earlier on, yes, we can take a look with our medium rundowns, but this shallow, I just want to see paint x 4, & that's more than enough for me to pull the trigger. I'd always be the raiser, not the caller, of course. If they fold, fine, we rarely lose when they all fold pre.

Hope your heater - now into it's 27th year I assume - continues.   

[Pinchop73]

Think the KKxx hand is a fold considering opponent stacks

Edit: typed that after Ralph's reply and not reading the new posts. Just read the results post, sigh

[tikay]

Think the KKxx hand is a fold considering opponent stacks

Well it's not the greatest hand, but how often - assuming we full pot it - will we get a fold?

25%, 33%, 50% of the time? We might get looked up, yeah, but we are not in bad shape if we do.

I'm one of those loathed & much-maligned nits who apparently ruin tourney poker, but this looks a terrific spot to me. We can't wait for Aces, & you know how it is with shortstacks, when we most want them to bust, they always keep doubling up!

[Pinchop73]

If he doubles he goes to 3.6bb

Think ICM is a much bigger factor in PLO comps compared to nlhe comps, simply due to your preflop edge being significantly less pre flop in any circumstance. (ie with any hand)

With no antes in play and sitting on 8bb there is no pressure to take a flip (which kkxx essentially is vs most of his calling range, he's never folding btw) for $$$$ in equity when there is a 1.8bb stack going to go through the blinds in 2 hands.

[tikay]

If he doubles he goes to 3.6bb

Think ICM is a much bigger factor in PLO comps compared to nlhe comps, simply due to your preflop edge being significantly less pre flop in any circumstance. (ie with any hand)

With no antes in play and sitting on 8bb there is no pressure to take a flip (which kkxx essentially is vs most of his calling range, he's never folding btw) for $$$$ in equity when there is a 1.8bb stack going to go through the blinds in 2 hands.

Yes, that is fair comment, I agree.

[Karabiner]

If he doubles he goes to 3.6bb

Think ICM is a much bigger factor in PLO comps compared to nlhe comps, simply due to your preflop edge being significantly less pre flop in any circumstance. (ie with any hand)

With no antes in play and sitting on 8bb there is no pressure to take a flip (which kkxx essentially is vs most of his calling range, he's never folding btw) for $$$$ in equity when there is a 1.8bb stack going to go through the blinds in 2 hands.

This is really quite an interesting aspect that I possibly didn't give enough thought to, possibly due to my actions on the previous orbit, although I was fully aware of the 27k(1.65bb) stack on my left.

Anyone else advocating folding KKQ9 ss in the cut-off in this spot after yet another min-open from the bully-boy?

[rfgqqabc]

Don't get annoyed. He is playing correctly by raising lots, and you are making money by folding lots. Everyone should give each other a pat on the back and count the $$$ with a smile on their faces. I don't understand saying we can't wait for aces. This has no relevance at all. We make money by watching the short stack spinup. Would you believe I've cashed 2 PLO8 comps with less than starting stack this year. Some person literally threw 100$ out of the window because he couldn't be arsed to wait for me to be in the big blind or get my chips in. Here you have a situation where you can potentially earn 20x your buyin for folding and watching someone bust out. You NEED to be bursting with excitement to watch this happen, not getting frustrated about the guy winning all the pots. My ICM isn't perfect and my PLO equities aren't world class but we can probably make a solid argument for folding AA** here. We probably can have as much as 42% to bust and do little to increase our chances of winning. ICM is the bible at this point. Karabiner your last post shows a fundamental flaw in thinking, you use "yet another" and "bully-boy" to describe another poker player. If i call someone a fish, Tikay would describe my thought process and attittude as flawed, how can I play properly against someone I have marked in such a negative manner. "I'm better than him, so I deserve to win the pot". This is never true in poker. Folding kkq9ss really does suck, but we are getting such good odds to ladder further it seems like a no brainer, as does the 9975ds.

[Karabiner]

I didn't intend to use those terms as derogatory as the big stack should be bullying here by opening 90% of hands, I did say previously that he was playing his big stack well.

It just so happened that his being on my right and continually raising happened to get to me a little yesterday for some reason and skewed my thinking somewhat. On another day I would have happily let him knock everyone out and laddered in my customary fashion.

I only ever put hands up on this board that I feel that I might have misplayed and welcome the feedback so that I can hopefully improve my game even at my august stage of life which I hasten to add is considerably less august than gramps.

[Oxford_HRV]

As stacks get shallower in PLO the hand selection dynamic changes a fair bit and the main things that happen is that BIG cards (speshly big pairs) become much more powerful, run-downs and mid-hands (like this one) lose their value very quickly with decreasing stack sizes. People's ranges for being all-in/committed pre-flop widen up and the first hands that come in are the AK[Q/J/T]* hands and those are hands that can vry easily dominate this hand you have. AKJ9 with a suit of yours and you have 25% etc.

So hands I'd look to attack his extremely wide opens with are strong JJ hands (QJJT with a suit etc) Most QQ hands (all DS and all AQQ* and KQQ*) pretty much every combo of KK that isn't horrible, all AA ofc, all ds AK** hands, and all hands with A[broadway][braodway] single suited and better - these hands are strong because they block a lot of the premium hands we could run into. Hands with small pairs (TT and below) are useless here, and the same goes for the vast majority of run-downs, 5678single I'd fold for e.g, obviously premium dbl suited rundowns like 89TJ ds you'd just get all-in although actually these are no where near as good as you think they are here.

Hands like 9975ds really play so much better with deeper stacks. Short-stack PLO is ALL ABOUT BIG CARDS

this is literally the game plan in small stakes 6 max hypers

[SuuPRlim]

have to disagree with everyone, I think the KKQ9ss is as clear a jam as you'll ever have...

there is no pressure to take a flip (which kkxx essentially is vs most of his calling range, he's never folding btw)

i think you have a lot of fold-equity, he's opening like 80% plus of hands right? surely we can assume he's folding quite a bit of that (in practice he actually isn't as he called K833single but if we learn he is calling 100% of his opens then I think we should be jamming even still given we're a big equity favorite at this point) and we're defo miles better than a flip we can get this in ~70% quite easily. We have like a premium hand here don't forget.

You should jam/pot for sure though we really want him to fold ideally, K833 call is just very bad obviously.

I think we got too much equity and fold equity to not jam here, maybe the ICM is a consideration but would have to look at the payouts etc. If we don't jam here we're basically handing him the 1st place, imo.

[tikay]

have to disagree with everyone, I think the KKQ9ss is as clear a jam as you'll ever have...

there is no pressure to take a flip (which kkxx essentially is vs most of his calling range, he's never folding btw)

i think you have a lot of fold-equity, he's opening like 80% plus of hands right? surely we can assume he's folding quite a bit of that (in practice he actually isn't as he called K833single but if we learn he is calling 100% of his opens then I think we should be jamming even still given we're a big equity favorite at this point) and we're defo miles better than a flip we can get this in ~70% quite easily. We have like a premium hand here don't forget.

You should jam/pot for sure though we really want him to fold ideally, K833 call is just very bad obviously.

I think we got too much equity and fold equity to not jam here, maybe the ICM is a consideration but would have to look at the payouts etc. If we don't jam here we're basically handing him the 1st place, imo.

Not EVERYONE, I still think it is a terrific spot to get it in & stated as such.

[tikay]

Don't get annoyed. He is playing correctly by raising lots, and you are making money by folding lots. Everyone should give each other a pat on the back and count the $$$ with a smile on their faces. I don't understand saying we can't wait for aces. This has no relevance at all. We make money by watching the short stack spinup. Would you believe I've cashed 2 PLO8 comps with less than starting stack this year. Some person literally threw 100$ out of the window because he couldn't be arsed to wait for me to be in the big blind or get my chips in. Here you have a situation where you can potentially earn 20x your buyin for folding and watching someone bust out. You NEED to be bursting with excitement to watch this happen, not getting frustrated about the guy winning all the pots. My ICM isn't perfect and my PLO equities aren't world class but we can probably make a solid argument for folding AA** here. We probably can have as much as 42% to bust and do little to increase our chances of winning. ICM is the bible at this point. Karabiner your last post shows a fundamental flaw in thinking, you use "yet another" and "bully-boy" to describe another poker player. If i call someone a fish, Tikay would describe my thought process and attittude as flawed, how can I play properly against someone I have marked in such a negative manner. "I'm better than him, so I deserve to win the pot". This is never true in poker. Folding kkq9ss really does suck, but we are getting such good odds to ladder further it seems like a no brainer, as does the 9975ds.

Hi Adam,

You make some very fair points there, & I agree up to a point.

I just think, though, that if the Shorties both 2xUp, & we end up failing to get a top three cash, we'll be rueing that missed spot for ages, "jeez, if only I had taken that chance when it was offered" sorta thing. These things can really mess with our heads.

I definitely agree that we can motor with VERY small stacks in PLO, & even smaller stacks in PLO8. Most folks push way too early, imo.

Oddly, & perversely, my greatest regret in poker (playing) was missing out on ther Final of the 2012 $1,500 WSOP PLO8, when I "went for it" with 11 or 12 left even though there were three stacks each with less than three Bigs. It still brings a tear to my eye 18 months on. That was a once in a lifetime chance for me to make a WSOP Final Table. I'll never learn.....

Incidentally, congrats on that splendid Genting cash, very nice. The official winner, Richard Milner, caught my eye actually, as the Head of Poker Next Door, & thus my Boss, shares that very name. He's crap at poker though.

[Doobs]

have to disagree with everyone, I think the KKQ9ss is as clear a jam as you'll ever have...

there is no pressure to take a flip (which kkxx essentially is vs most of his calling range, he's never folding btw)

i think you have a lot of fold-equity, he's opening like 80% plus of hands right? surely we can assume he's folding quite a bit of that (in practice he actually isn't as he called K833single but if we learn he is calling 100% of his opens then I think we should be jamming even still given we're a big equity favorite at this point) and we're defo miles better than a flip we can get this in ~70% quite easily. We have like a premium hand here don't forget.

You should jam/pot for sure though we really want him to fold ideally, K833 call is just very bad obviously.

I think we got too much equity and fold equity to not jam here, maybe the ICM is a consideration but would have to look at the payouts etc. If we don't jam here we're basically handing him the 1st place, imo.

Not EVERYONE, I still think it is a terrific spot to get it in & stated as such.

I thought the 9975 was terrible, but potting this looks fine.  The min raise again is just wrong.  You have already shown on the 9975 hand you aren't doing this with monsters, so he isn't going to fall for your show of strength.  But even if you had AAxy I still think it is a disaster because of the chip stacks.  You definitely prefer him to fold and if you get the AAxy in pre you can be pretty sure you are ahead.

I might try and do se calcs on this shove when I get a chance.  Maybe I am wrong.

[tikay]

have to disagree with everyone, I think the KKQ9ss is as clear a jam as you'll ever have...

there is no pressure to take a flip (which kkxx essentially is vs most of his calling range, he's never folding btw)

i think you have a lot of fold-equity, he's opening like 80% plus of hands right? surely we can assume he's folding quite a bit of that (in practice he actually isn't as he called K833single but if we learn he is calling 100% of his opens then I think we should be jamming even still given we're a big equity favorite at this point) and we're defo miles better than a flip we can get this in ~70% quite easily. We have like a premium hand here don't forget.

You should jam/pot for sure though we really want him to fold ideally, K833 call is just very bad obviously.

I think we got too much equity and fold equity to not jam here, maybe the ICM is a consideration but would have to look at the payouts etc. If we don't jam here we're basically handing him the 1st place, imo.

Not EVERYONE, I still think it is a terrific spot to get it in & stated as such.

I thought the 9975 was terrible, but potting this looks fine.  The min raise again is just wrong.  You have already shown on the 9975 hand you aren't doing this with monsters, so he isn't going to fall for your show of strength.  But even if you had AAxy I still think it is a disaster because of the chip stacks.  You definitely prefer him to fold and if you get the AAxy in pre you can be pretty sure you are ahead.

I might try and do se calcs on this shove when I get a chance.  Maybe I am wrong.

Yes - I want to play for my stack here, & I'm full potting it. I don't mind either way then, whether Matey Boy calls or folds, I've done the right thing.