New UK Legislation

[tikay]

One last hurrah with the few hundred I've got in both sites then

Ha, I bet they'll be a few folks having a final spin-up.

Think it is business as usual until 30th September.

[Doobs]

Just another nail in the coffin for online poker albeit a reasonably large one.  Surely must have an effect on the online grinders and surely more will be seeking employment outside of poker as a result of this?

Not really. In the global sense, it will not make a dot of difference really, the UK lads who play on Winamax will just play elsewhere, Stars mainly I suppose. I doubt any British Pros make their living solely on Winamax. UK recreationals don't play on sites like Winamax.

The poker economy works from the bottom up, with the recreationals by FAR the biggest in number, & if anything, they are increasing in volume. 

Its sad & bad that the nosebleed guys & so called "regulars" are feeling the pinch, & I mean that, but more & more the future health of Online Poker is about the micro-limit players.

Ideally, we want ALL levels to be doing well, but the base of the pyramid is the most important part, & thats fine & dandy right now. Most Online sites that have embraced the recreational market are doing just fine, in fact most of them have seen increased traffic.   

The balance is shifting, thats all.

I think you are wrong on UK pros making a living off Winamax.  As I said before take away Winamax and I made nothing the last two years.  I am sure I can still make something on Stars playing O8 hypers and keeping away from the biggger MTTs.  But it would be a stretch to call it a living.  I am sure there are more than a handful who play more than 50% of their volume on the French sites.  Marc Wright must win about half his money there now, and wouldn't be surprised if the share of his profits from the French sites is a lot more than that.  I know quite a few of Alex' Goulder's friends were pretty big players there. 

There must be several others where the loss of the French sites will mean that making a living from poker is no longer an option.  They may be able to still make something from the game, but it won't be enough to live on especially if backed.  If you are making 10% ROI on smaller stakes on stars and 30% on bigger stakes on the French sites, the loss of the French siites is going to be a big hit.

I don't suppose you fancy suggesting adding a few mid range tournaments that finish about 1am UK time to a UK facing site?  There must be a market out there for them now. 

[Doobs]

One last hurrah with the few hundred I've got in both sites then

Make sure you spend all your miles.  Think I am going to come up annoyingly short of getting the 500 Euro bonus.  Also I just depositted the other day, so might have to make an effort to clear that.  I don't know what the plan is if I empty the account on a downswing.  I really dislike having to pay 3% to deposit, and if there is only a couple of days left I guess I'll just call it a day. 

[tikay]

Just another nail in the coffin for online poker albeit a reasonably large one.  Surely must have an effect on the online grinders and surely more will be seeking employment outside of poker as a result of this?

Not really. In the global sense, it will not make a dot of difference really, the UK lads who play on Winamax will just play elsewhere, Stars mainly I suppose. I doubt any British Pros make their living solely on Winamax. UK recreationals don't play on sites like Winamax.

The poker economy works from the bottom up, with the recreationals by FAR the biggest in number, & if anything, they are increasing in volume. 

Its sad & bad that the nosebleed guys & so called "regulars" are feeling the pinch, & I mean that, but more & more the future health of Online Poker is about the micro-limit players.

Ideally, we want ALL levels to be doing well, but the base of the pyramid is the most important part, & thats fine & dandy right now. Most Online sites that have embraced the recreational market are doing just fine, in fact most of them have seen increased traffic.   

The balance is shifting, thats all.

I think you are wrong on UK pros making a living off Winamax.  As I said before take away Winamax and I made nothing the last two years.  I am sure I can still make something on Stars playing O8 hypers and keeping away from the biggger MTTs.  But it would be a stretch to call it a living.  I am sure there are more than a handful who play more than 50% of their volume on the French sites.  Marc Wright must win about half his money there now, and wouldn't be surprised if the share of his profits from the French sites is a lot more than that.  I know quite a few of Alex' Goulder's friends were pretty big players there. 

There must be several others where the loss of the French sites will mean that making a living from poker is no longer an option.  They may be able to still make something from the game, but it won't be enough to live on especially if backed.  If you are making 10% ROI on smaller stakes on stars and 30% on bigger stakes on the French sites, the loss of the French siites is going to be a big hit.

I don't suppose you fancy suggesting adding a few mid range tournaments that finish about 1am UK time to a UK facing site?  There must be a market out there for them now. 

Maybe I should have said "not many" rather than "not any", I'll grant you that.

Some of your reply I don't quite understand. They can make 30% on Winamax, & 10% elsewhere? Well they will all migrate to another site, surely, & the status quo will remain intact?

The final sentence? Well I have to be a little guarded, but the whole matter of these various sites no longer being available has been on the discussion menu, obv. We should remember, though, in your case you mention MTT's on Winamax first & foremost, & how UK facing sites should address the Winamax "opportunity". It's a watch this space thing really. They all have plans to soak up some of the traffic, obviously. Not that there are many UK facing sites, of course. 

For the record, Online Poker generally is divided into 3 "slices" of revenue, being Cash, MTT & SNG's. There is very little (in total revenue/Margin) between MTT's & SNG's, SNG's perhaps just shade it. Add the 2 together though (revenue from MTT's & SNG's) and it does not add up to total cash margin/revenue, in fact it is barely half of cash margin. Broadly, it is 17.5%, 17.5%, 65%, give or take a few %.   

All the noise is made by the crash-bang wallop MTT's, oooh look at that car crash, but the money mainly comes from cash games. MTT's for show, cash for dough, you might say.   

Great change lies ahead, but I don't see too many nails in coffins, personally, providing it is understood how important recreationals are to the whole scheme of thinhgs.

[Marky147]

One last hurrah with the few hundred I've got in both sites then

Ha, I bet they'll be a few folks having a final spin-up.

Think it is business as usual until 30th September.

I'll probably play a whole 3 or 4 tournaments then, if I've got 2 more weekends

One last hurrah with the few hundred I've got in both sites then

Make sure you spend all your miles.  Think I am going to come up annoyingly short of getting the 500 Euro bonus.  Also I just depositted the other day, so might have to make an effort to clear that.  I don't know what the plan is if I empty the account on a downswing.  I really dislike having to pay 3% to deposit, and if there is only a couple of days left I guess I'll just call it a day. 

I probably haven't got enough miles to get me a McDonalds, but I'll have a look and see if I've got anything due.

[arbboy]

Just another nail in the coffin for online poker albeit a reasonably large one.  Surely must have an effect on the online grinders and surely more will be seeking employment outside of poker as a result of this?

Not really. In the global sense, it will not make a dot of difference really, the UK lads who play on Winamax will just play elsewhere, Stars mainly I suppose. I doubt any British Pros make their living solely on Winamax. UK recreationals don't play on sites like Winamax.

The poker economy works from the bottom up, with the recreationals by FAR the biggest in number, & if anything, they are increasing in volume. 

Its sad & bad that the nosebleed guys & so called "regulars" are feeling the pinch, & I mean that, but more & more the future health of Online Poker is about the micro-limit players.

Ideally, we want ALL levels to be doing well, but the base of the pyramid is the most important part, & thats fine & dandy right now. Most Online sites that have embraced the recreational market are doing just fine, in fact most of them have seen increased traffic.   

The balance is shifting, thats all.

I think you are wrong on UK pros making a living off Winamax.  As I said before take away Winamax and I made nothing the last two years.  I am sure I can still make something on Stars playing O8 hypers and keeping away from the biggger MTTs.  But it would be a stretch to call it a living.  I am sure there are more than a handful who play more than 50% of their volume on the French sites.  Marc Wright must win about half his money there now, and wouldn't be surprised if the share of his profits from the French sites is a lot more than that.  I know quite a few of Alex' Goulder's friends were pretty big players there. 

There must be several others where the loss of the French sites will mean that making a living from poker is no longer an option.  They may be able to still make something from the game, but it won't be enough to live on especially if backed.  If you are making 10% ROI on smaller stakes on stars and 30% on bigger stakes on the French sites, the loss of the French siites is going to be a big hit.

I don't suppose you fancy suggesting adding a few mid range tournaments that finish about 1am UK time to a UK facing site?  There must be a market out there for them now. 

Maybe I should have said "not many" rather than "not any", I'll grant you that.

Some of your reply I don't quite understand. They can make 30% on Winamax, & 10% elsewhere? Well they will all migrate to another site, surely, & the status quo will remain intact?

The final sentence? Well I have to be a little guarded, but the whole matter of these various sites no longer being available has been on the discussion menu, obv. We should remember, though, in your case you mention MTT's on Winamax first & foremost, & how UK facing sites should address the Winamax "opportunity". It's a watch this space thing really. They all have plans to soak up some of the traffic, obviously. Not that there are many UK facing sites, of course. 

For the record, Online Poker generally is divided into 3 "slices" of revenue, being Cash, MTT & SNG's. There is very little (in total revenue/Margin) between MTT's & SNG's, SNG's perhaps just shade it. Add the 2 together though (revenue from MTT's & SNG's) and it does not add up to total cash margin/revenue, in fact it is barely half of cash margin. Broadly, it is 17.5%, 17.5%, 65%, give or take a few %.   

All the noise is made by the crash-bang wallop MTT's, oooh look at that car crash, but the money mainly comes from cash games. MTT's for show, cash for dough, you might say.   

Great change lies ahead, but I don't see too many nails in coffins, personally, providing it is understood how important recreationals are to the whole scheme of thinhgs.

It will def suit the sites as more of the deposits getting greater churn (therefore the site keeps a bigger % of it from rake) albeit of a much smaller overall amount in cash terms.

[Doobs]

Just another nail in the coffin for online poker albeit a reasonably large one.  Surely must have an effect on the online grinders and surely more will be seeking employment outside of poker as a result of this?

Not really. In the global sense, it will not make a dot of difference really, the UK lads who play on Winamax will just play elsewhere, Stars mainly I suppose. I doubt any British Pros make their living solely on Winamax. UK recreationals don't play on sites like Winamax.

The poker economy works from the bottom up, with the recreationals by FAR the biggest in number, & if anything, they are increasing in volume. 

Its sad & bad that the nosebleed guys & so called "regulars" are feeling the pinch, & I mean that, but more & more the future health of Online Poker is about the micro-limit players.

Ideally, we want ALL levels to be doing well, but the base of the pyramid is the most important part, & thats fine & dandy right now. Most Online sites that have embraced the recreational market are doing just fine, in fact most of them have seen increased traffic.   

The balance is shifting, thats all.

I think you are wrong on UK pros making a living off Winamax.  As I said before take away Winamax and I made nothing the last two years.  I am sure I can still make something on Stars playing O8 hypers and keeping away from the biggger MTTs.  But it would be a stretch to call it a living.  I am sure there are more than a handful who play more than 50% of their volume on the French sites.  Marc Wright must win about half his money there now, and wouldn't be surprised if the share of his profits from the French sites is a lot more than that.  I know quite a few of Alex' Goulder's friends were pretty big players there. 

There must be several others where the loss of the French sites will mean that making a living from poker is no longer an option.  They may be able to still make something from the game, but it won't be enough to live on especially if backed.  If you are making 10% ROI on smaller stakes on stars and 30% on bigger stakes on the French sites, the loss of the French siites is going to be a big hit.

I don't suppose you fancy suggesting adding a few mid range tournaments that finish about 1am UK time to a UK facing site?  There must be a market out there for them now. 

Maybe I should have said "not many" rather than "not any", I'll grant you that.

Some of your reply I don't quite understand. They can make 30% on Winamax, & 10% elsewhere? Well they will all migrate to another site, surely, & the status quo will remain intact?

The final sentence? Well I have to be a little guarded, but the whole matter of these various sites no longer being available has been on the discussion menu, obv. We should remember, though, in your case you mention MTT's on Winamax first & foremost, & how UK facing sites should address the Winamax "opportunity". It's a watch this space thing really. They all have plans to soak up some of the traffic, obviously. Not that there are many UK facing sites, of course. 

For the record, Online Poker generally is divided into 3 "slices" of revenue, being Cash, MTT & SNG's. There is very little (in total revenue/Margin) between MTT's & SNG's, SNG's perhaps just shade it. Add the 2 together though (revenue from MTT's & SNG's) and it does not add up to total cash margin/revenue, in fact it is barely half of cash margin. Broadly, it is 17.5%, 17.5%, 65%, give or take a few %.   

All the noise is made by the crash-bang wallop MTT's, oooh look at that car crash, but the money mainly comes from cash games. MTT's for show, cash for dough, you might say.   

Great change lies ahead, but I don't see too many nails in coffins, personally, providing it is understood how important recreationals are to the whole scheme of thinhgs.

I realise it doesn't make much difference overall to the sites, just does at apersonal level.

I am guessing I make roughly 20% more on the French sites in ROI than I do on Stars.  It is had to be exact because of volatility.  In addition my average buy on the French sites (Winamax notably) is higher.  So I play an MTTon Winamax I might make 10 or 15 Euros each time in the long run.  If I play one on Stars I might make $2 a time long run.  Though I can substitute one site for the other, the difference in my bottom line is very significant.

I would add that I can't simply play similar tournaments on Stars or elsewhere.  ipoker has very good (ie bad) structures that mean that you can be up until 4am to make not very much.    Stars volatility is much higher due to the bigger fiels, and on Shy there aren't that many tournaments. 

This all makes a big difference to me, but sure the sites will go on.  I am sure my schedule will become much more heavily weighted to O8.

Looks like I found a job at the perfect time.  Ran good.

[cambridgealex]

This really sucks. Winamax is pretty much the only site I have ever won one over the last 5 years

Since I have a Spanish address and bank account now, would I be able to reapply?

[DMorgan]

Since I have a Spanish address and bank account now, would I be able to reapply?

With the Spanish regulations you would only be able to play on winamax.es if there is such a thing

[cambridgealex]

Since I have a Spanish address and bank account now, would I be able to reapply?

With the Spanish regulations you would only be able to play on winamax.es if there is such a thing

I've seen regs playing winamax.fr on their phones/ipads in the casino in barca?

[DMorgan]

Not 100% but I'm pretty sure that that spanish regulation is the same as the french regulations and you're not allowed to play on non-licenced sites. It may just be that they have so few players trying to play on french sites illegally from spain that they didn't bother to spend the time and resources on prevention

[Doobs]

Maybe the software just thinks you in France when you are in Barcelona?  It isn't that far away.  It cold just be the internet provider in the Casino?  Maybe people are just knowingly breaking the law.

From 2 plus 2

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/official-winamax-poker-support-feedback-1318637/index3.html

Originally Posted by Rise of The Icarus  View Post
Thanks Dave for your reply, but in all honesty you circled around my questions and ended up not answering any of my doubts. So let me ask the questions I need an answer for more clearly:

1) Is Winamax.fr open to Spanish players?

2) Is Spain not included in the list of the "some exceptions" that you say exist within the EU?

3) Why Winamax.fr is not offering its services in Italy?

I am quite excited to add Winamax.fr to the sites I currently play on, thus I would appreciate if you could specifically answer each of the questions above as this would clarify which is the situation I am/may be facing.

Thanks again for your help in advance!
Hi there,

I don't really see what more I could say to be more explicit.

Our licence in France permits us to accept players from anywhere in the EU. However, there are certain countries which have similar laws to France which prevents players from those countries playing on our site.

We operate our site according to the rules set out by our regulator in France. While we do try our best to keep up with the laws in all other countries, it is also down to the players themselves to ensure that they are following the laws of their country of residence.

So as I said in my previous reply, if the law in Spain says that you may not play on a site that does not have a Spanish licence, then you should not play on Winamax.

I hope this is clear enough for you

[cambridgealex]

OK thanks guys. They're basically saying it's your responsibility to check, they are not going to do anything about it if you play, but it could be against the law.

[tikay]

OK thanks guys. They're basically saying it's your responsibility to check, they are not going to do anything about it if you play, but it could be against the law.

Please be careful Alex.

Remember, the key moment is when you come to withdraw. They may be happy to turn a blind eye whilst it is going on, but less so when it comes to paying to a non-compliant (not registered in France?) player.

I also read on 2+2 (no idea if true) that those responsible for primarily policing this are the Staff & Directors of the Company, & they (potentially) face prison sentences for breaking these new laws.

It'd be pretty bad if you binked big & then found you could not withdraw the money. GG you if you try taking THAT to court, too. Winamax already stated that the players have a responsibility to comply. That's code for fyl if we catch you & you try to withdraw Mr Rosbif.

I'm just guessing on all this, but do please be careful, I worry about you, as you are so young & sweet. Mitch, of course, is big enough & some may say ugly enough to look after himself.

[AndrewT]

There really must be a non-zero chance of Stars pulling out of the UK as the UKGC is clearly being very picky about grey markets.

Stars staying

http://www.pokerstars.com/uk-migration/

Due to new regulations, all gaming services available to players in the United Kingdom must be licensed in the UK. As a result, all PokerStars players in the UK will be required to move their accounts to PokerStars UK and download an updated desktop client and/or mobile app to continue using the service.

Your log-in details, account balance and history will NOT be affected by the change, and you will still be able to enjoy our complete range of games with players from around the world.

The new PokerStars UK client will be available from 00:01 BST on October 1. To move your account, simply launch the software as usual from your PC or Mac, log-in and follow the on-screen prompts. The process is quick and straightforward, and will usually take under a minute to complete. Players using mobile devices will need to move their accounts as described above, then download the new app for free from the App Store (for iOS users) or from the PokerStars mobile site (for Android users).