A Taxing debate

[samurai]

The amount of taxation in this country is obscene. Anybody who would not pay as little as possible must have rocks for brains.
And bollocks to all this holier than thou gamblers should pay income tax. The law says they don't have too so why should they?
Too many guardian readers in this thread!!!

[DaveShoelace]

I don't think anyone in this thread has said poker players are imoral, demanded they pay tax or called them tax dodgers. Everyone has said that they theoretically should pay tax. Everyone getting so defensive are putting words in the other's mouthes and not understanding the difference between a debate in theory.

The only exception has been Camel, who ironically is a professional gambler, which has certainly made things interesting and probably a tad more heated.

[david3103]

Wouldn't the whole thing be simpler if all taxes were collected on expenditure rather than income?

Arbboy would be right then and the thread could come to a halt.



(obviously there would have to be rigorous customs operations, but we could retrain the Income Tax mob to add numbers to that)

No definitely not.

People who earn £10 million a year would pay a tiny % of their wages in tax whereas minimum wage earners would pay near 100% tax!

Minimum wage earners would pay zero on foods and essentials. People earning £10MM pa could pay 200% on their Ferrari and having the swimming pool serviced.

I do understand that it wouldn't really work in practice, but it could be designed to be fair in theory.

[Doobs]

Suppose you lot calling out the government for pure greed will be all for slashing old age pensions, shutting down half the hospitals, or campaigning for schools to run with 40 in each class.  That is the reality.  The Government had been really struggling to raise enough tax as things like pensions and the NHS keep increasing exponentially every year. 

Last week a neoliberal, this week a guardian reader.  How quickly things change on the boards.  Makes me long for some less rabid discussion with kmac. 

[dreenie]

Suppose you lot calling out the government for pure greed will be all for slashing old age pensions, shutting down half the hospitals, or campaigning for schools to run with 40 in each class.  That is the reality.  The Government had been really struggling to raise enough tax as things like pensions and the NHS keep increasing exponentially every year. 

Last week a neoliberal, this week a guardian reader.  How quickly things change on the boards.  Makes me long for some less rabid discussion with kmac. 

And you think the pension the government gives is acceptable ? Loloooool !

Money is used for royal family, bentleys big holidays etc etc hence the why I said greed. Maybe if it was used for what it was meant for I wouldn't be slating the government.

My mum has never not worked in her life. Last year she became really ill, physically couldn't work so she was advised to claim benefits, what did they say? "You haven't paid enough national insurance to be eligible for any help" LOL. She is 56 years pls and always worked on the books in her jobs so pls tell me how that is fair? How the government is helping the working class? They are not. All for one and one for all is what I say.

[Doobs]

Suppose you lot calling out the government for pure greed will be all for slashing old age pensions, shutting down half the hospitals, or campaigning for schools to run with 40 in each class.  That is the reality.  The Government had been really struggling to raise enough tax as things like pensions and the NHS keep increasing exponentially every year. 

Last week a neoliberal, this week a guardian reader.  How quickly things change on the boards.  Makes me long for some less rabid discussion with kmac. 

And you think the pension the government gives is acceptable ? Loloooool !

Money is used for royal family, bentleys big holidays etc etc hence the why I said greed. Maybe if it was used for what it was meant for I wouldn't be slating the government.

My mum has never not worked in her life. Last year she became really ill, physically couldn't work so she was advised to claim benefits, what did they say? "You haven't paid enough national insurance to be eligible for any help" LOL. She is 56 years pls and always worked on the books in her jobs so pls tell me how that is fair? How the government is helping the working class? They are not. All for one and one for all is what I say.

Thank you for illustrating the point beautifully.  You are all for cutting taxes but at the same time find the state pension a disgrace.  Education, the NHS and pensions and benefits for the elderly are going to be something close to half the Government budget.  If you asked people what we should do with those 3, there would be far more people say we should increase spending than cut it.  Way of the World.  The last election was a joke, the public finances were in as bad a state as they had been in a generation, and they all arc like there isn't going to be a real issue with the big budget items going forward.  I got so sick of it, I was thinking of voting green.  How did they respond to the biggest financial crises in our time, yep they were going to double state pensions.  You couldn't make this shit up.   

Again we saw it in the Scottish referendum, we are going to be paying bigger pensions, more spending on the NHS and schools, start a big state oil fund for our futures and we are going to make a big cut in corporation tax.  How does that all work?  But people don't want to hear the reality, they want to keep their heads in the clouds. 

You could give every MP a chauffeur driven Bentley and pay their bills at 3 star Michelin restaurants, but it isn't going to scratch the surface of the NHS budget.

FWIW inheritance tax isn't 60%, and you certainly don't pay it on all your inheritance.  I personally would far rather tax the children of a dead person, who have done naff all for that money, than some nurse who is working nights.  Somebody has to pay the tax at the end of the day.  Each to their own.  Saying this really isn't in my self interest right now either. 

[AlexMartin]

there is no basic human trait of altruism...........

[WotRTheChances]

Can't believe there are so many advocates of UK poker players being taxed ITT!
Why is it that some people seem to think that casinos, online poker sites etc being taxed heavily by governments is completely irrelevant to the situation. The taxes imposed upon such business is absolutely 100% directly linked to the amounts players are charged in terms of rake. All poker players are directly funding these businesses tax payments thus are effectively paying a % 'tax' on winnings (and even losses!). It's a system whereby professionals, or those who play more are charged more to play than those who rarely play.

Importantly too, this system is easily controllable, taxing at the source and allowing those businesses to pass on these expenses as they see fit, in a competative environment. Were these businesses paying no tax at all, competition between them would inevitably lead to tournaments and cash games with almost 0 rake at all, so how people can say pros aren't contributing at all is beyond me.

If a tax were to be introduced, professionals in this country would be hit hard and many wouldn't be able to continue doing what they are. Some players would inevitably end up moving to locations where they wouldnt be taxed, or finding other ways around it. Using the current system although taxes appear to be 0, the real cost on players and tax gains for the government are significant, yet sustainable imo.

[scotty77]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfgSEwjAeno

This video touches on inheritance tax, and while obviously from an American POV, it has a great point.

The Royal Family budget and the salary and expenses of MPs are minuscule to the national budget.  In fact I would far rather see MPs salary rise massively to £300k a year and attract far better people who right now stay in the private sector, than the politicians we have right now.

[DaveShoelace]

If a tax were to be introduced, professionals in this country would be hit hard and many wouldn't be able to continue doing what they are.

Sounds like it would be pretty good for the game to have a mass exodus of mediocre pros though right?

[arbboy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfgSEwjAeno

This video touches on inheritance tax, and while obviously from an American POV, it has a great point.

The Royal Family budget and the salary and expenses of MPs are minuscule to the national budget.  In fact I would far rather see MPs salary rise massively to £300k a year and attract far better people who right now stay in the private sector, than the politicians we have right now.

The royal family budget is covered easily by the tax paid indirectly by the thousands of yanks and asian tourists' spending which hit London every year to see the sights and love the royal family. 

[The Camel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfgSEwjAeno

This video touches on inheritance tax, and while obviously from an American POV, it has a great point.

The Royal Family budget and the salary and expenses of MPs are minuscule to the national budget.  In fact I would far rather see MPs salary rise massively to £300k a year and attract far better people who right now stay in the private sector, than the politicians we have right now.

The royal family budget is covered easily by the tax paid indirectly by the thousands of yanks and asian tourists' spending which hit London every year to see the sights and love the royal family. 

No one goes to Paris, Rome, Amsterdam, Berlin, Barcelona, Venice etc etc etc etc etc do they?

[SuuPRlim]

Nhs is in a lot of trouble, should be privatised IMO.

Schools are the big thing that public spending should focus on, in an ideal world.

[AlunB]

Can't believe there are so many advocates of UK poker players being taxed ITT!
Why is it that some people seem to think that casinos, online poker sites etc being taxed heavily by governments is completely irrelevant to the situation. The taxes imposed upon such business is absolutely 100% directly linked to the amounts players are charged in terms of rake. All poker players are directly funding these businesses tax payments thus are effectively paying a % 'tax' on winnings (and even losses!). It's a system whereby professionals, or those who play more are charged more to play than those who rarely play.

Importantly too, this system is easily controllable, taxing at the source and allowing those businesses to pass on these expenses as they see fit, in a competative environment. Were these businesses paying no tax at all, competition between them would inevitably lead to tournaments and cash games with almost 0 rake at all, so how people can say pros aren't contributing at all is beyond me.

If a tax were to be introduced, professionals in this country would be hit hard and many wouldn't be able to continue doing what they are. Some players would inevitably end up moving to locations where they wouldnt be taxed, or finding other ways around it. Using the current system although taxes appear to be 0, the real cost on players and tax gains for the government are significant, yet sustainable imo.

There are no online poker companies that pay any meaningful amount of tax to the UK government at the moment. PokerStars is based in the Isle of Man. It paid $5m tax on $422m profit in 2013. All the UK government got was an even smaller amount in corporation tax from its UK marketing subsidiary.

From December it will have to pay 15% on its UK revenues to the UK government and just the threat of it reducing player rewards to compensate has players up in arms.

People who don't currently pay tax leaving the country so they don't pay tax also doesn't seem like a huge loss.

[arbboy]

Can't believe there are so many advocates of UK poker players being taxed ITT!
Why is it that some people seem to think that casinos, online poker sites etc being taxed heavily by governments is completely irrelevant to the situation. The taxes imposed upon such business is absolutely 100% directly linked to the amounts players are charged in terms of rake. All poker players are directly funding these businesses tax payments thus are effectively paying a % 'tax' on winnings (and even losses!). It's a system whereby professionals, or those who play more are charged more to play than those who rarely play.

Importantly too, this system is easily controllable, taxing at the source and allowing those businesses to pass on these expenses as they see fit, in a competative environment. Were these businesses paying no tax at all, competition between them would inevitably lead to tournaments and cash games with almost 0 rake at all, so how people can say pros aren't contributing at all is beyond me.

If a tax were to be introduced, professionals in this country would be hit hard and many wouldn't be able to continue doing what they are. Some players would inevitably end up moving to locations where they wouldnt be taxed, or finding other ways around it. Using the current system although taxes appear to be 0, the real cost on players and tax gains for the government are significant, yet sustainable imo.

There are no online poker companies that pay any meaningful amount of tax to the UK government at the moment. PokerStars is based in the Isle of Man. It paid $5m tax on $422m profit in 2013. All the UK government got was an even smaller amount in corporation tax from its UK marketing subsidiary.

From December it will have to pay 15% on its UK revenues to the UK government and just the threat of it reducing player rewards to compensate has players up in arms.

People who don't currently pay tax leaving the country so they don't pay tax also doesn't seem like a huge loss.

Can starbucks also leave the country?  Easily the biggest 'non standard income/corporation tax non payer' in the history of the country based on turnover.