Self ban on games online bookies & machines inside bookies

[The Camel]

Put the same bet on with a casino

Put the same bet on with a machine

pretty confident I know which one is making more money

I reckon the a roulette wheel in a casino will be making more money than a single FOBT - the limits are higher.

You get a huge amount more spins on a FOBT though

[kinboshi]

Put the same bet on with a casino

Put the same bet on with a machine

pretty confident I know which one is making more money

I reckon the a roulette wheel in a casino will be making more money than a single FOBT - the limits are higher.

You get a huge amount more spins on a FOBT though

Exactly the same as the arguments about there being more bad-beats online.  As a ratio to hands dealt it's the same as live, but yes, as you see more hands when it's a computer dealing rather than a live game.

I guess that's why the article refers to them as 'crack cocaine of gambling'.

But in answer to Aaron's question (which wasn't actually a question, but I'm answering it anyway) - the same bet on a live roulette wheel and on a FOBT - the expected return will be the same.

[The Camel]

Put the same bet on with a casino

Put the same bet on with a machine

pretty confident I know which one is making more money

I reckon the a roulette wheel in a casino will be making more money than a single FOBT - the limits are higher.

You get a huge amount more spins on a FOBT though

Exactly the same as the arguments about there being more bad-beats online.  As a ratio to hands dealt it's the same as live, but yes, as you see more hands when it's a computer dealing rather than a live game.

I guess that's why the article refers to them as 'crack cocaine of gambling'.

But in answer to Aaron's question (which wasn't actually a question, but I'm answering it anyway) - the same bet on a live roulette wheel and on a FOBT - the expected return will be the same.

And this is why you are much more likely to win at a live casino than at an online casino or on a FOBT.

The sample size is a lot smaller so you are more likely to run +ev and beat the odds.

[AdamM]

we don't do FOBT roulette, so wouldn'y be able to confidently talk about them either way.
Do they definitely have 97.2% as an advertised RTP?

[aaron1867]

£100 spin in a casino x 100 v £100 spin in a bookies x 100

I am pretty sure who will make the most.

I don't know if these machines are rigged or not, but I do know that they are simply computers that are programmed to do as they are told, they create significantly more loss than I do in a casino and they already have labelled on them % payout, if it was completely random number generator, then how can it be guaranteed. These machines are not allowed in other countries.

I think they are fixed, perhaps I am a sore loser?

Anyway, think this is totally missing the point

[kinboshi]

Put the same bet on with a casino

Put the same bet on with a machine

pretty confident I know which one is making more money

I reckon the a roulette wheel in a casino will be making more money than a single FOBT - the limits are higher.

You get a huge amount more spins on a FOBT though

Exactly the same as the arguments about there being more bad-beats online.  As a ratio to hands dealt it's the same as live, but yes, as you see more hands when it's a computer dealing rather than a live game.

I guess that's why the article refers to them as 'crack cocaine of gambling'.

But in answer to Aaron's question (which wasn't actually a question, but I'm answering it anyway) - the same bet on a live roulette wheel and on a FOBT - the expected return will be the same.

And this is why you are much more likely to win at a live casino than at an online casino or on a FOBT.

The sample size is a lot smaller so you are more likely to run +ev and beat the odds.

Yep, same probability, but you're able to realise the long-term EV (i.e. guarantee a loss).

[The Camel]

£100 spin in a casino x 100 v £100 spin in a bookies x 100

I am pretty sure who will make the most.

I don't know if these machines are rigged or not, but I do know that they are simply computers that are programmed to do as they are told, they create significantly more loss than I do in a casino and they already have labelled on them % payout, if it was completely random number generator, then how can it be guaranteed. These machines are not allowed in other countries.

I think they are fixed, perhaps I am a sore loser?

Anyway, think this is totally missing the point

You are "pretty sure" you will do better at the casino.

I will lay you 4/5 to as much as you like that you will win more on at the casino, having the same bets on both.

Very good odds about something you are pretty sure about I think!

[FUN4FRASER]

if these are random number generators, then how can they guarantee the payout?

A computer only does what you program to do it, then only does what you tell it to do when using it

Having seen these machines in operation I dont believe they are random number generators either( despite bookies claims.)

whether Im right or wrong...

but you're dfinitely wrong

being random and being possible to win long term are different questions entirely.

If we roll a perfectly good dice a million times and I pay you 4/1 every time a 6 lands, you can't beat the game.
Doesn't stop the dice being random

I understand odds & dont want a full blown argument but your statement is based on the machines being 100% random , we could ask a bookies spokeman but what do you think they would say ?

Youve given a comparison of a perfectly good dice versus a terminal  ....the dice is obviously random but we dont know the terminals are hence I dont think your comment of "definitely wrong"  is fair.

Its my opinion from what I have seen they are not random , and I would wager money on returns being higher on a live roulette machine (same stakes etc )

Aaron has said £100 v £100 but of course this would be pretty difficult to prove a winner as the sample size would need to be a lot bigger.

[FUN4FRASER]

£100 spin in a casino x 100 v £100 spin in a bookies x 100

I am pretty sure who will make the most.

I don't know if these machines are rigged or not, but I do know that they are simply computers that are programmed to do as they are told, they create significantly more loss than I do in a casino and they already have labelled on them % payout, if it was completely random number generator, then how can it be guaranteed. These machines are not allowed in other countries.

I think they are fixed, perhaps I am a sore loser?

Anyway, think this is totally missing the point

You are "pretty sure" you will do better at the casino.

I will lay you 4/5 to as much as you like that you will win more on at the casino, having the same bets on both.

Very good odds about something you are pretty sure about I think!

What you saying Keith ?  you dont agree with Aaron or you just want to effectively take 5-4 on the terminal ?   

[gouty]

Bookmakers have zero incentive to have fixed machines on their premises. We get bad enough press without that too. The RGNs are audited by PWC which is the same lot that scrutinise the Lotto. I agree however that the speed of play is very different to casino play which is why you feel lose more when in fact you are losing more quickly.

As a punter one of my biggest leaks is gambling whilst pissed, but I realise this and also recognise that I really enjoy it too.

As an operator if anyone comes in drunk to play the machines I kick em out straight away as I can't know wether they are as self disciplined as me!

[The Camel]

£100 spin in a casino x 100 v £100 spin in a bookies x 100

I am pretty sure who will make the most.

I don't know if these machines are rigged or not, but I do know that they are simply computers that are programmed to do as they are told, they create significantly more loss than I do in a casino and they already have labelled on them % payout, if it was completely random number generator, then how can it be guaranteed. These machines are not allowed in other countries.

I think they are fixed, perhaps I am a sore loser?

Anyway, think this is totally missing the point

You are "pretty sure" you will do better at the casino.

I will lay you 4/5 to as much as you like that you will win more on at the casino, having the same bets on both.

Very good odds about something you are pretty sure about I think!

What you saying Keith ?  you dont agree with Aaron or you just want to effectively take 5-4 on the terminal ?   

Both!

[Cf]

If you think the machines are "rigged" then why do you play them?

I'm a member of a fruit machine forum and I hear the same tired line over and over again.

People claim they're "rigged" because they are looking to blame someone/thing other than themselves for the fact they are losing.

As an example let's take Rainbow Riches POG. Load the game up and you will be treated to some text along the lines of:

"This game is random and pays to 90%."

This can be translated to:

"If you play this game then in the long term you will LOSE"

So if you play it and don't win what are you surprised about? Yeah, throw a cheeky £20 in and you might get lucky and get pots. But more often than not you'll lose your £20. But if it's just an every now and then thing then no big deal as you're paying for the entertainment. But sit down and have a session though and suddenly £20 can turn into £500+ in no time. But these are very high variance games. Even at 100% being over £500 in wouldn't be hard to do. And the continual 50p/£1 wins that get recycled won't help you either.

When a random game says it's at 90% what it means is out of (for example) 1,000,000 combinations of the reels if you add all the prizes from each combination it'll come to £900,000. When you press start you'll be randomly given one of those combinations. And that's it.

There's no need for it to be rigged. How do they guarantee a profit? The same ways casinos do: Mathematics.

[aaron1867]

The laws of maths doesn't mean that they are guaranteed profit, it just shows edge.

Anyway, think discussion has been done over now.

[redarmi]

Well you could argue that....

"This game is random and pays to 90%."

....means they are rigged.  I think people just underestimate the power of that figure.  Even if they pay at 97% (correct for roulette I think) if you assumed 5 spins a minute at £10 a spin you would lose £90 an hour and many people are betting a lot more than a tenner a spin.  In a casino you would be lucky to get a spin every 3minutes and your losing rate would be £6 an hour which is within the realms of "entertainment" spending.

[Cf]

The laws of maths doesn't mean that they are guaranteed profit, it just shows edge.

No, they do. That's the important bit that people don't understand.

If a game is purely random then over time it WILL hit its target %.

It doesn't matter if people have got "lucky" or "unlucky", the maths states that it will still hit that % over time.