A Taxing debate

[Doobs]

Don't know how you somehow equate social responsibility with socialism. If you put to one side the basic human trait of altruism, most people realise it IS in their own best interest to act socially responsibly.

Just seen the edit, I never disputed that, I said that I personally don't believe that someone attempting to pay as little tax as is possible could be considered socially irresponsible.

People who say its fair that a man who earns £20,000 a year should pay £2,500 in tax and someone who earns £500,000 a year should pay £220,000 are in cloud fucking cuckoo land IMO.

Yeah fair point as the 20k fella will be paying more than that and there is very little chance the 500k fella will pay that much. 

[AlunB]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

It's interesting quite a few people had adopted the, if the law moves against you move against the law approach.

Do you think most poker pros would rather resort to borderline criminality than simply pay tax?

yes.

Have you no social responsibility?

Why shouldn't you pay tax?

Everyone else does.

This is when it was mentioned

I'm fairly sure he meant paying SOME tax not arguing you should pay the maximum amount possible.

I do pay the maximum amount of income tax possible on my income.  Nothing.  My income is exempt from income tax.  I don't make the rules i just play by them.

Sigh.

Gold star for missing the point.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not saying professional gamblers should pay income tax in the current environment. That's just daft. As you say you are not legally obliged to. Not even the camel pays income tax right now.

I AM saying they should pay income tax in theory.

[DaveShoelace]

Need the words "Political correctness gone mad" to complete the full house.

Where's Woodsey when you need him?

Think we also need this one

Click to see full-size image.

[arbboy]

Surely taxing any system that allows play across borders that include the ability to offset losses are easily worked around. You'd just dump all your profits to your mate in Amsterdam and take a long weekend picking up your cash every month

It's interesting quite a few people had adopted the, if the law moves against you move against the law approach.

Do you think most poker pros would rather resort to borderline criminality than simply pay tax?

yes.

Have you no social responsibility?

Why shouldn't you pay tax?

Everyone else does.

This is when it was mentioned

I'm fairly sure he meant paying SOME tax not arguing you should pay the maximum amount possible.

I do pay the maximum amount of income tax possible on my income.  Nothing.  My income is exempt from income tax.  I don't make the rules i just play by them.

Sigh.

Gold star for missing the point.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not saying professional gamblers should pay income tax in the current environment. That's just daft. As you say you are not legally obliged to. Not even the camel pays income tax right now.

I AM saying they should pay income tax in theory.

I have no problem with paying income tax if the law states i have to. It's up to the government to set the limits/bands, i will then make a decision based on these bands as a businessman which form of income is going to be most beneficial for me to engage in and i will then do everything in my power to legally minimize how much tax i have to pay.  That's just human nature/standard business practice surely?  If i am deemed to be a tax dodger doing this then, imo, it's the fault of the government for not setting the rules strictly enough.

[SuuPRlim]

Tax system in the UK is flawed all over the place, IMO.

A good welfare system should, and i realise this is very ambitious and a little seperated from reality, encourage those at the bottom of the system (welfare recipients) to move up and progress, whilst protecting those who genuinely need looking after (which I actually think is a higher % of welfare recipients than most people believe) give the people at the top value for money and reduce incentive to cheat the system and most importantly protect the people in the middle of the system - the class who really do get shafted by the current system as they are too high up to benefit from the welfare system they massively contribute to and too low down the system and without the same resources as those at the top to creatively reduce their exposure.

Not taxing professional gamblers is another example of the flawed system, when they do decide to tax pro gamblers, they are almost certainly going to significantly over tax it, more flaws.

I've paid voluntary NI for the last 4 years, but like Alun said it doesn't go to the right places so it's just another tax, how on earth you can justify taxing one person significantly more national insurance than another is mystifying to me.

[redarmi]

Tax system in the UK is flawed all over the place, IMO.

A good welfare system should, and i realise this is very ambitious and a little seperated from reality, encourage those at the bottom of the system (welfare recipients) to move up and progress, whilst protecting those who genuinely need looking after (which I actually think is a higher % of welfare recipients than most people believe) give the people at the top value for money and reduce incentive to cheat the system and most importantly protect the people in the middle of the system - the class who really do get shafted by the current system as they are too high up to benefit from the welfare system they massively contribute to and too low down the system and without the same resources as those at the top to creatively reduce their exposure.

Not taxing professional gamblers is another example of the flawed system, when they do decide to tax pro gamblers, they are almost certainly going to significantly over tax it, more flaws.

I've paid voluntary NI for the last 4 years, but like Alun said it doesn't go to the right places so it's just another tax, how on earth you can justify taxing one person significantly more national insurance than another is mystifying to me.

Very good post.

[david3103]

Wouldn't the whole thing be simpler if all taxes were collected on expenditure rather than income?

Arbboy would be right then and the thread could come to a halt.



(obviously there would have to be rigorous customs operations, but we could retrain the Income Tax mob to add numbers to that)

[The Camel]

Wouldn't the whole thing be simpler if all taxes were collected on expenditure rather than income?

Arbboy would be right then and the thread could come to a halt.



(obviously there would have to be rigorous customs operations, but we could retrain the Income Tax mob to add numbers to that)

No definitely not.

People who earn £10 million a year would pay a tiny % of their wages in tax whereas minimum wage earners would pay near 100% tax!

[arbboy]

Wouldn't the whole thing be simpler if all taxes were collected on expenditure rather than income?

Arbboy would be right then and the thread could come to a halt.



(obviously there would have to be rigorous customs operations, but we could retrain the Income Tax mob to add numbers to that)

No definitely not.

People who earn £10 million a year would pay a tiny % of their wages in tax whereas minimum wage earners would pay near 100% tax!

Agreed.  It would be far too regressive to operate like that.  VAT is currently too high at 20% and is overly regressive without adding basic income tax to expenditure as well.

[AndrewT]

Wouldn't the whole thing be simpler if all taxes were collected on expenditure rather than income?

Arbboy would be right then and the thread could come to a halt.



(obviously there would have to be rigorous customs operations, but we could retrain the Income Tax mob to add numbers to that)

No definitely not.

People who earn £10 million a year would pay a tiny % of their wages in tax whereas minimum wage earners would pay near 100% tax!

Agreed.  It would be far too regressive to operate like that.  VAT is currently too high at 20% and is overly regressive without adding basic income tax to expenditure as well.

That system would work if it included a tax rebate for everyone - say £10k a year.

[StuartHopkin]

Wouldn't the whole thing be simpler if all taxes were collected on expenditure rather than income?

Arbboy would be right then and the thread could come to a halt.



(obviously there would have to be rigorous customs operations, but we could retrain the Income Tax mob to add numbers to that)

No definitely not.

People who earn £10 million a year would pay a tiny % of their wages in tax whereas minimum wage earners would pay near 100% tax!

I'm confused by this point?

[The Camel]

Wouldn't the whole thing be simpler if all taxes were collected on expenditure rather than income?

Arbboy would be right then and the thread could come to a halt.



(obviously there would have to be rigorous customs operations, but we could retrain the Income Tax mob to add numbers to that)

No definitely not.

People who earn £10 million a year would pay a tiny % of their wages in tax whereas minimum wage earners would pay near 100% tax!

I'm confused by this point?

I'm stupid.

[DungBeetle]

Wouldn't the whole thing be simpler if all taxes were collected on expenditure rather than income?

Arbboy would be right then and the thread could come to a halt.



(obviously there would have to be rigorous customs operations, but we could retrain the Income Tax mob to add numbers to that)

No definitely not.

People who earn £10 million a year would pay a tiny % of their wages in tax whereas minimum wage earners would pay near 100% tax!

Agreed.  It would be far too regressive to operate like that.  VAT is currently too high at 20% and is overly regressive without adding basic income tax to expenditure as well.

That system would work if it included a tax rebate for everyone - say £10k a year.

So like a personal allowance on first £10k of purchasing tax.  Wouldn't VAT have to be 60% to make this work?  Also - isn't there a problem in that if you earn in UK and spend it outside the country you'd be tax free?  It would also kill tourism unless there is some kind of tourist exemption (which would be open to fraud).

Feels like a bad idea to me.

[AlunB]

Wouldn't the whole thing be simpler if all taxes were collected on expenditure rather than income?

Arbboy would be right then and the thread could come to a halt.



(obviously there would have to be rigorous customs operations, but we could retrain the Income Tax mob to add numbers to that)

No definitely not.

People who earn £10 million a year would pay a tiny % of their wages in tax whereas minimum wage earners would pay near 100% tax!

Agreed.  It would be far too regressive to operate like that.  VAT is currently too high at 20% and is overly regressive without adding basic income tax to expenditure as well.

That system would work if it included a tax rebate for everyone - say £10k a year.

So like a personal allowance on first £10k of purchasing tax.  Wouldn't VAT have to be 60% to make this work?  Also - isn't there a problem in that if you earn in UK and spend it outside the country you'd be tax free?  It would also kill tourism unless there is some kind of tourist exemption (which would be open to fraud).

Feels like a bad idea to me.

Pretty sure they have no personal tax in The Bahamas and it's all based on property, capital gains and sales taxes.

It's pretty hilarious at the airport with the size of the bags the locals have and wearing about four pairs of jeans trying to get through customs.

[dreenie]

When my father died, his estate got taxed 60% which IMO is an absolute joke. He worked all his life as a doctor, paid his taxes etc and still had to pay 60% after he was dead. The UK government is pure greed and if you can get what you can whilst you are alive then good on you, and tbh it really is nobody's business to dictate what others should or shouldn't do.

Agree with Scotty too, so much poker money doesn't actually come from poker, people do whatever it takes to survive and it should be on their head to face whatever consequence should they get caught. It really isn't rocket science.

I suppose all the people ITT demanding poker players should pay tax would also shop a drug dealer etc to the police ?

Poker + gambling  = Greed = every man for himself.