WCOOP #4 PLO 6max

[Pinchop73]

Hey all, think this is more of an overall strategy point of view question really.

We're around 30 spots from the money, min cash is like $550 so not to be sniffed at. The opener is the chip leader at the moment, a random Norwegian going absolutely bazzerk.  (Which I can't blame him for with the bubble looming). He will have witnessed me battling Mr.Tim Caum pretty hard over the last level, including a few marginal hands in 3b pots.

Would flatting pre and inevitably folding somewhere post be better as a $ev driven strategy rather than taking this reasonably marginal +cEV spot?

With 10 mins of folding to a cash easily achievable is even a fold pre out of the question?

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/10707721_AC26E8B4F3

Interestingly (to me) I only have 40% equity on the flop vs his hand

[SuuPRlim]

no played it right, nothing else you can do.

[pleno1]

what about this dave/all?

http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hands/Boom/10705228_89E575C795

villain is a huge whale, the table fish etc. my friend said he thought 3betting pre wasnt good and i should call and hope somebody pots behind and that im announcing my hand etc.

on the flop he was donking 100% almost so post is std if we get this far, but what do you thnk about pre?


also hand 2

button who previously 3bet/got in a247ssxx opens button and we are in the big blind with 15 big blinds

how wide should we be potting?



danke xo

[SuuPRlim]

disagree potting PF is bad, hope someone pots behind is a bit ambitious imo, the SB who has 11k is almost 0% to pot anything, he basically needs something really really really premium to pot here, he'll prolly be flatting with better AA than you have tbh. The BB could pot but he has 22~ bb which is quite a difficult stack to leverage in a PL no-ante comp so I think he'll favour calling or folding over potting in most spots, obviously if he gets dealt something really good he'll squeeze and you'll end up AI against him but we're essentially relying on coolering him.

Remember as well both blinds will be SLIGHTLY more likely to call this PF open once we flat as they'd likely want to be in the pot with this player and he's only opened for min so even of the 22 bb stack he'll not be struggling for reasons to cal, and we're going to be folding the flop quite a bit.

Given he's going to call PF almost 100% and include a lot of hands that we're doing well against I don't think you will ever be doing badly potting, calling is much lower variance though and that's something to think about. Flop is one of those, insta GII spots in a cash game ofc, bit sigh we have the though as it means pair+ SD is most likely hand and he has plenty of killshots.

in the second hand, if your read is he'ssuper spewy PF then i'd be going for AKK* magnum KK, AQQ* AK[Q-J]* with nut suits and any sort of A high ds broudway combo ( AQJTds etc) would also go for any KK and QQ dbl pair hand. I'd pot KQJT too because i love that hand, not sure thats amazing though.

[Dubai]

I'd be 3betting the button maybe with top 40%, flatting as little as 10% and folding 50% of hands in hand 1. But I would never be 3 betting pot. Understand these numbers might seem extreme but honestly think that's optimal

[Dubai]

That was to Pleno. Obv Pinchop hand standard

[Honeybadger]

I just finished watching Galfond's 14(!) part series on RIO of his PLO Scoop deep run (he finished second). He has a zero 3bet strategy for the vast majority of the tournament and gives some very good justifications for why good PLO players should not be 3betting in tournaments.

[Dubai]

And I completely disagree and would crossbook myself v him in any plo comp. All about opinons

[Honeybadger]

And I completely disagree and would crossbook myself v him in any plo comp. All about opinons

Yeah ofc it's all about opinions. What I like about PLO is that - due to the way preflop equities work - it is quite possible for two very good winning players to have completely different preflop strategies, one almost maniacal and one zero % 3bet. In NL you can't profitably use a strategy that does not push preflop equity. But in PLO so many different preflop strategies are possible because the preflop equities run so much closer.

[Dubai]

I've spoke to several excellent PLO players and tournament players, and we think you should be either the craziest player or the tightest player at the table. So sort of comes into line with preflop strategies

[Honeybadger]

Fwiw Galfond's strategy was not an uber tight one. He still opened quite loosely and defended his blinds a lot etc. He just didn't 3bet at all, or at least hardly at all.

His justification for this was based on two related things; reducing variance to let his postflop skill edge be more relevant, and ICM considerations. The ICM argument was roughly along these lines: When you 3bet someone and he defends, you are both forced to stack off pretty light on a lot of flops due to the SPR (He describes it as both players "entering an agreement" to stack off postflop if they hit a piece). And this creates a post flop ICM disaster for both of you. Obviously this is not the case when extremely deep (i.e. at the start of the tourney). Neither is it the case if your opponent is weak/tight and is folding too much, either preflop or on the flop. But against strong and appropriately sticky opponents, by 3betting you are creating a situation where you are very often both committed for stacks on the flop. And this is obviously bad from an ICM perspective.

There are no doubt many different winning preflop strategies in PLO tourneys, so it comes down to personal preference. Galfond is basically an extremely highly-skilled nit, so it is unsurprising that he chooses this particular strategy over a crazy-dazie approach. And obviously Dubai is not exactly a nit lol, so story checks out that he prefers the 40% 3bet alternative

It was a very interesting video series anyway, and made me think a lot about things.

[pleno1]

I had AKJ9ssxx in hand two.

[Pinchop73]

Cheers for the comments guys. Nice to know such pedigree plays it the same.

I think Stu's comments about the ICM disaster is what I had in my head though, the reason why I posted. (Not meaning to belittle your comments, I respect them 120%, but...)

I can't help but think it was a $ev mistake to 3b and know that I'm going to have to commit to virtually any flop. Being a maximum 60% favourite pre is not imo a large enough edge to warrant busting at this point in the comp.

Still I did enjoy this comp immensely

The second hand I'd flat with Pads. I'd be hating life if I had to call off to a jam, and I feel our hand is more than strong enough to take to the streets oop. If we 3b get called and whiff the flop with a 1:1 spr were going to be like

[SuuPRlim]

People are very results orientated in PLO comps, and people fold to 3betana lot more too.

[rfgqqabc]

Big fan of the lower variance style too, don't really want to gamble when people play so weak postflop. Hard to bust in none 3b pots too. Having said that peeling AKJ9ss would be bad, got to get it in there imo