blonde poker forum

I would like to know what people think about this.

The hand I went out on at the WPT 25K at the Bellagio was KK vs AA. I have always said I would not fold KK preflop!
If there ever was a time I think this was it!

1 Hour to go in day 1 and I had 85K ( above average) There was a limp of 300 utg, a raise to 600 early position, a reraise to 3,500 from only guy on table who had me coverd ( he also had a great table image) , came to me in the cutoff and I made it 13,500, folded back to guy that has me covered (that raised to 3500) who then moves all in. This was the toughest decision I have ever had to make ;goodvevil;

And he had  Ahrt Aspades vs my  Kd Kh

I've folded KK preflop only once. I think it was the main event of a Luton festival a year or so ago.

I think it was the second or third level and we're about even in chips. It was a pretty similar situation that you described - raise, re-raise, re-re-raise.

The re-re-raise was from the table rock.

Look down at a K, squeeze the next card. King.

Thought about it for a long time, but passed.

Both the orignal raiser and re-raiser call.

Raiser = AK
Re-rasiser = QQ
Re-re-raiser = AA

AA takes the pot on a raggy board.

 never say never 
 
 but it would take extraordinary circumstances for me to fold KK pre flop

 such as raise, re raise, re re raise from tight tight players

 i have never done it before the biggest hand ive folded is QQ and i regretted it afterwards because the guy could have had AK or JJ in my view

 but the way i see it

 is
 
 i am a poker player , i love playing poker ,  when i look down at my 2 hole cards and see 2 Kings
 
 my heart beats faster and the blood starts flowing, i play to win whether its a sit n go , a tourney or whatever, KK is a monster hand pre flop. they dont come along often and the chances of someone else having AA when they do come along is massive so in my eyes it is defeating the purpose of playing poker if you fold KK before the flop, thats not to say i would never do it, but it would take extreme circumstances for me to even think about it.

I haven’t. However, I have never played such a big deep-stacked tournament as the one you describe and with opponents of that calibre.

With the way the betting pattern goes, I find it difficult to believe that he could have anything other than AA but whether I would have found the courage to pass, I can't say.

I haven't folded them eithe, but the chances are not that massive. Assuming a full 10 handed table, the chances of an opponent holding AA when you hold KK are only 21.7/1.

That said I am of course still not passing as I have already said above. Nearly a 22-1 chance is enough for me to get em in, but when the players are good, betting patterns are everything.

I'm not goo enough to lay that down!

Taken (and paraphrased) from Sklansky's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players.

1st hour of the main event of the WSOP. The blinds are 25/50. UTG raises it to 300, 2nd player calls, two more call behind him. You make it 2,000 to go with KK, UTG folds, the 2nd player moves all-in, the other callers fold. Do you call?

people are saying it would take a lot of convincing to fold KK preflop.. I reckon the example Brian gave is quite persuasive!

the only problem Brian has is that whilst I dont know his exact playing style, I expect that he doesn't always need a monster to make the raise to 13,500 (maybe I am wrong about this).. as a result, the guy jamming into him doesn't exactly need AA to jam back at him.. but thats just supposition, and is just guess work on Brians style

I know that if it was me in brians spot, I would fold KK nearly all the time there.. but because its brian in brians spot, maybe folding KK is a mistake (because of his playing style)

I might have his style completely wrong though, all I know of it is from WSOP and that Pacific poker thingy...

Niether am I ....I wish I was but I'm not

I don't think I'm either but I think it is possible with VERY deep stacks and a lot of preflop action.

I havent but I wish I had.

Brian, I've seen you lay down KK in a £5 tournament before.

It was in Cincinnatis, 3 handed!

It was to AQ, but there was a rabbit hunt and your opponent woulda pinged the Ace. :)

A couple of times I have been sure that my KK was up against AA, but I wasn't good enough to pass.

lol
exactly! i am a member of this club i'm affraid - (twice) i have had that feeling and they say you should learn from your mistakes but obviously i hadn't :-(

Both times,i KNEW my Oppo had AA but used the excuse that i am not good enough to lay it down. - Sometimes you JUST KNOW.

Thats spot on Junior, there have been times where in your heart of hearts that your behind but still can't put them down. 
Simply because it doesn't seem plausible.

No, it DOES seem plausable - what i am saying is in your mind you just dont WANT to fold!

and that was a big part of it, the guy had caught me on a big bluff about 2 hours earlier

I've got a friend who passed KK preflop during the student poker championships. it was one of those raise, re-raise, all in situations. It turned out his opponent had the one hand he couldn't put him on... KK.

thats happened to me with 3 players left in a home game

 i raise with KK, short stack raises all in,  3rd player re raises all in again and im thinking " I wonder which one has Ace rag ? "

 i call anyway short stack has Q7 re raiser has KK and were just waiting to get cracked by 2 pair or something but we held up and split the short stack.

 also against the same player i picked up KK first hand heads up, i limp in hoping for a raise but he checks

 flop is 3 7 10 he checks, i bet he raises, i flat call, turn 10, he checks, i check, now scared of the 10, river 2, he bets out again and i have to flat call.

 i show the KK , he shows AA

 the both of us pissed oursleves laughing, 2 monsters first hand heads up ( first time ive ever seen KK v AA heads up )
 and we were both scared of a silly 10 on the turn  rotflmfao

I take the the view that taking a decision to never pass KK pre-flop is going to be more profitable for me in the long run than laying it down, but this theory is based on the fact that there is very little difference in the buyin/prize money structure of the tournaments I am playing.

In a 25K buyin ? wow, that would certainly get my pulse racing a litte :)

I did once by accident.  A wasp flew into my shirt and I panicked. I tried to hit raise and folded by mistake.

rotflmfao  rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao

You do deserve a Blog Sark - youw ould have so many stories.  Brilliant!!

I have only folded KK 3 times and it was allin in the same tournament.

St maarten 2 years ago and my first ever 5k buyin event.
level 2 I had already lost with KK (or folded to ace on flop bets) 3 times and I get them on the button. UTg limps (1st pot he had played in whole tourney) seat 2 raises and seat 3 reriases the UTG man holds his breath for ever while I sit and decide what to do- I fold as it would mean calling allin. UTG pushes allin and is called by the reraiser. AA v KK and I wouldve been drawing almost dead.

Next level I have built my chips up and am sat 2nd chippy on the table. chip leader raises I reraise and he pushes allin. Again I fold thinking I am clever and this time I am shown AK (not passing them ever again I tell myself).

LAst level of day1 and I up with chip leaders and I get tricky and limp with KK in the cutoff as the button is shortstacked (about 11k) and seems to like his hand. He also limps and the small blind raises to 5200 (blinds were 300/600 I think). I do the unthinkable and just call after wondering what he has to raise that way (I know awful play). The button now pushes allin allowing the small  blind to reraise allin another 28k allin. I have around 60k in front of me with 50 players left and this is screaming AA. I take maybe 10-15 minutes and eventually fold with Tony Chessa saying "what took you so long- hes got aces , its easy to fold kings there". button man has 77, sb has AA (pat on the back) but the first card on the flop is a king  :( I wouldve gone into day 2 as chip leader if I had reraised the first raise and got myself potstuck and this hand haunted me for a long long time.

It is going to take something extrodinary for me to ever fold KK preflop again- I think to be honest I was too cautious with it being my first big buyin event and I bottled it to be honest. I made the last couple of tables and got 8k back but with the cards I had I wouldve finalled if I had played my normal game.

KK four times in one event?? Do you have a golden rig available for your live game too Russ?

 rotflmfao rotflmfao

think i had KK about 10 times in total in a 2 day event and never had aces once. Very strange game at times and like say I was a card rack and shouldve gone deeper.

Have folded KK 3 times in a comp twice live and did the unthinkable and folded them online preflop in the ladbrokes $250 i won the other week. It was very early blinds 15/30 and i had already doubled to 6k my opponent had 7k. He min raised to 60 UTG and i reraised to 240 UTG+1 it now passes round to him and he makes it 850 to play. I now put him on aces and he has priced me out of flopping the set so i just pass. About an hour later he gave me his whole stack on a 10 7 2 flop when i flopped a set of 7s and he couldnt get away from JJ so i think it was the correct play even though i never actually got to see his obvious aces.
On one of the live occassions i got away from KK without putting a chip in the pot it was one of the old 100 rebuys Luton used to have a good few years ago once a month on a friday night. It was fairly deep into the comp last 2 tables as i recall. There was an under the gun limper and then Steve Vladar made a very strong raise that left me with no way of finding out with my stack where i was after a very lengthy 5 minute dwell i managed to fold them and thankfully was shown the aces.
Had an interesting conversation with Carlo about this the basic summary of which is he said they can show me aces and im still not passing KK preflop.

have never laid down KK preflop
have never played a comp where laying down KK preflop was an option. the games I'm playing, early doors people play AA and 99 EXACTLY the same. late on they're such crapshoots laying down and medium pair or big Ace is pretty unusual.

If Im ever 100% sure I'm up against AA I'll pass KK. It's not being good enough to pass kings, it's being totally 100% positive with your read on a player and a situation. Not there yet.

But that's just the mathematics of the situation.  A 22-1 chance of your opponent holding AA seems completely different when looking at a reraise from "Mr Tight as the proverbial" to facing a re-reraise from "Mr Loose?, I wish I played that tight"

I agree it would be almost impossible for small time players (i.e. me) to lay this down (without at least first catching a glimpse of your opponents hand :) ) as the re-reraiser goes on to turn up his A2 (but they were sooooted lol) but if you opponent has hardly breathed for an hour then bursts into the reraise chant, I'm not for putting him on a bluff too often.

stoneii

Out of curiosity - a question to Brian, and everyone else in general - if you are convinced they have AA, and end up laying do, would you show your hand?

No. Never.

No.

1) If they think I am capable of laying down KK, then they will attempt to run all kinds of moves past me (sure this can be good for you, but not a situation that I want).
2) If you show your KK and your opponent is a reasonable player, he imo is less liekly to show you his AA to validate your decision.

No free info.

ya, needed new underwear after the hand ;goodvevil;

I WOULD HAVE SHOWN, would have shown the table I can get away from a hand, i almost turned them up and walked away, I am still happy w/ my play as I do not think I will ever lay them down pre-flop ;goodvevil;

The question is Brian, have you ever laid them down post flop!!  ;tk; ;goodvevil;

He has laid down KK pre-flop. I have witnesses  ;tk;

yes

what a witty reply!

It's morning over there, give him time.

I just folded them to a rereraise in a cash game, I was actually calling myself a fool while I did it and thinking i'd lost my bottle, but I just had a bad feeling about.

Luckily another guy called all in preflop and I got to see the AA, soundly beaten by all in mans 77 which hit a set.

I just don't think I could do it in a comp though - certainly not the ones I play in anyway.