blonde poker forum

I am trying to become a better post flop player in recent months and I feel it is improving. I am experimenting with playing more hands and greatly increasing my hands when in good position. The following hand is just an example of this. I would like comments on it.

Live game, and I have 7000 chips. Blinds are 50-100.

I am on the button with 2 limpers at a 7 handed table. I look down and see  5d 7d. I raise to 250.

The BB calls (stack about 10,000) as does one limper (stack about 16000). The BB was caught making a move earlier by this same limper and was trying to buy the pot, so I know he is capable of making a move. The limper it is his first live game and when I asked him if he played a lot online, he said no, only played a few times. He earlier called a turn bet of 2000 on an ace high board and bet 5000 on a river jack. He had jacks. In no way am I criticising his skill, just that he is inexperienced.

The flop comes out   Kh 7h  Td. The BB checks and the limper bets 300. I am not sure where I am but I want to see a turn so I call and the BB folds. The turn is  Kd. He bets out 1000. I flat call. The river is the  Qd.

He then bets out 3000, and I go all in. Initially, he thinks about it for a few seconds, (not sure if he was thinking or trying to dtermine how much more) but he calls. I flip over my flush while he flips over  Ks Tc for the boat. Good night.

Now I know most will say dont play those hands and why call his flop or turn bet but again, I am trying to experiment my play and pick my spots better in the future. This is just an example where it didnt' work out. Other then the obvious comments, anyone have anything to say?

ok the way i see this

150 (Blinds)
You raise with low suited connectors, and since this is cincs i agree u can get away with this.

3x250
- - - - -
900

Flop

Another 300 to see and u hold bottom pair prolly still call just to see its only 3 bb

900+600 = 1500

Turn

He bets 1000 pot is then 2500 and it costs ya 1000 to see so thats, 3.5 to 1 odds for a flush which u boards lowest pair and a low flush draw. i dunno if i would call here with such a low flush all he needs is to hold either  8d 9d Jd Ad and another random diamond which all could be possible if he was straigh drawing.

River

3500 Pot and he Raises just under the Pot, i think your all in was justified cause if he only had trips Kings he would be in a bad position with 3 diamonds on the board so i prolly say all in move was justified and would make him think but then again hes got the boat so he wants the all in

I am the reverse.

Pre flop good idea, you are deep pot build with suited connectors.

The flop, easy call.

The turn, the chance of him having a better FD is tiny. Folding here is horrible if we hit it is disguised.

The river he leads out with a pretty decent bet, i am curious at this point, i don't see any value in raising. Flat call.

This is an interesting point and one that I admit I overlooked. At the time I felt that I was so far into my stack that leaving 1000 and change behind was fruitless, but you are right, I should have just called and lived to see another day if I was behind

Thanks

I like the way you played it up till the river raise.

He leads out with a big bet. Flat calling is better here as you have far from the nuts albeit a very well disguised flush. Given the size of the pot, he will call you with worse hands it's true but the value you gain from the extra 2k or so chips you can riase on the river is not nearly as great as the value of the 2k chips you lose when you riase and he is ahead.

Ug, i agree with flushie.

my advice would be if you're going to play this type of hand LEARN HOW TO PLAY IT FIRST.

super-aggressive players don't win tournaments because they get lucky from time to time in the big pots at crucial points. it's because after the flop THEY KNOW WHERE THEY'RE AT. you admitted in your post you didn't. why even try and play a style you're not equipped to?
another thing you did that a successful super-aggressive player wouldn't is target a complete beginer to pull off this sort of move. you don't REALLY know what this guy is going to do when he has the nuts or has nothing. super-aggressive players will target the pradictable 6 months of inet play tightish player because they can read them like a book.
considering the type of players you were up against and the deepness of your stack. you really should of just waited till some nice hole cards came along instead of pissing away your chips rather embarresingly..

prolly why your better :P

A bit harsh, he did say he was experimenting!

I just looked at the hand again and saw it was only 7k chips. This makes the turn call a bit closer to marginal although i am still making it!




75 suited is a nice starting hand, you think he should pass 75 suited on 50-100 with a 70,000 stack?

That's what I am doing! lol

I cant learn to do it until I try it. As I said this was a time it didnt work out. I am experimenting in different styles as I want to be able to play all gears well.


I agree with this statement and I will be looking for this next time I play.


I dont see it as embarassing at all. I know I can play good poker playing a tight aggressive game and cashing in when I get the cards, but I want to become a better player with more gears. I look at these hands as learning experiences that I can use in the future. In terms of super aggresiveness, I have to crawl before I can walk.

I am no expert and have no pretetions that I may/maynot become one, but surely you should be making these types of  7d 5d, moves at a later stage when the pressures on and people are freezing up a bit?

hell yes.

although i think it was a 7k stack. thats still 70x the BB. why mix it up here when you should want to be winning small pots and keeping your stack ticking over until the blind levels rise?

okay sure but surely if you're yet to try this sort of thing why do it in a live tournament where you have a great chance of going on some with 70x BB? should you not be experimenting maybe in a long live cash game? - or on numourous online SnGs? probably both. live cash games so you have plenty of times to work out where you are on the flop. and the SnGs just because the quickness of learning.
i have actually done this and all it took was a sit down with some turbos for a few hours online employing the 'DN suited connectors stratergy'. think there's some articles on his site that go through this if you need any help but it should be pretty obvious to you really.
everytime you play a suited connector though you have to say to yourself 'wheres my oppotunity?' think about that one for a minute..

As I said, I am experimenting, and I understand your point, but I am trying to mix it up and hopefully build a big stack early which is my goal of playing different hands. And I dont think you can compare playing suited connectors in a turbo to playing suited conectors in a live tourney. I play many different hands online and I am am trying to incorporate this style to live. The point of playing these suited connectors is to play them cheap and mix it up. I am trying to put myself in difficult situations so that when I play in bigger buy in tourneys with better players I can feel better prepared.

Temp0r when you have 70 bb that is exactly when you should be playing 75 suited. Its a great structure and you want to just sit there and pass these huge winners?

Do you know why you are raising preflop?  This isn't a value raise (because you are behind AND underdog).  I feel that raising with 75s with position is a semi-bluff.  I.e. you're happy if everyone folds but it's not a disaster if you get called.  Certainly, if you hit the flop, your hand is disguised; if you miss, you can get away from your hand easily (unlike, for example, when holding pocket aces).

As Sklansky would tell you in his excellent book, a semi-bluff only works if you give the other players an opportunity to fold. So, I would have raised more preflop, to 600.  I mean, the way you played it the limper is getting 5-to-1 on a call and is not going to pass.  How much would you have raised if you had KK?

Also, this type of play is intrinsically tied up to your table image.  Are you raising with position all the time, or very infrequently?  Do you tend to follow-through on the flop regardless or do you normally slow down if you miss?  Are you the dominant player at the table or is everybody mixing it up?

On this specific flop, I would fold.  You have missed your flop, and a player has bet into you.  Even the weakest possible holding -- a flush draw with two cards higher than a seven --  he is favourite to win against you (you have bottom pair, no kicker, and a runner-runner flush draw -- hardly a hand to wet your pants about).  I don't like your call here, especially with one player still left to act.  What hand are you representing by calling?  A raise in my mind would pretty much be a pure bluff, to be attempted if you genuinely sense weakness.

On the end when you raised, honestly, were you thinking "I'm absolutely sure my opponent has king-ace or king-jack but he definitely doesn't have king-queen or king-ten", or "Woohoo, I've hit my flush"?

this very much depends on what stage of the tournament we're at. how far from a payout we are. you're right in saying this if it was the early stages of a tournament with a field of 300+ but i somewhat doubt this was the case.

It hardly makes a diffrence, 70 BB's 75 suited on the button is playable!

I agree, I can't think of a better opportunity for small suited connectors; ie when the blinds are small and the stacks are deep and I am on the button

what i'm trying to say is in small multitable tournaments there's no need for mixing it up in this way to make the money. you also may want to consider what image you have at the table before mixing it up. you have to at first create a 'big cards' image if you want big pots executing these moves.

The raise is not to scare people off, it's a pot building raise, it's just the right size. I think you should PM Keith 'The Camel' and ask his advice, (not saying I don't agree with what's been said here already) because he makes similar moves.

Thanks...I will!

Some people play to win :D

It's true you need to be aware of your image to be raising with these hands but anyone can limp it on the button.

some people should learn you don't win a tournament on an outer table.

Playing 57d on the button on 50-100 with a 7k stack is hardly pressing home.

I imagine you make a lot of final tables as a short stack then complain when your AK gets outdrawn?

temp0r

you are spot on.. you notice how the chip leader of the WSOP on day 1 never wins the main event? this is defintive proof that these people that put their TOURNAMENT LIFE on the line on the first day are bad players. You cant win tournaments on the outer tables, but you sure can lose them. Just avoid hands like this, hope you get AA and KK when it matters, and try and get into the money, THEN you can start trying to get some chips!

First, the WSOP is the largest field in the world, and comparing a play at a tourney of 50 to the same play in a tourney of over 8000 and saying I should wait for aces and kings, I think, is a silly argument. Second, I can't count the number of times I have heard solid professional players, who have many major titles to their name, say it is worth it to build a chip lead early by playing these types of hands and risk going bust then wait and become an average or below average stack in the middle of the tournament.

I also think a major point of this hand has disappeared and that is the fact I am on the button. I am not playing this hand UTG or from the blinds, but on the button.

Don't worry canuck. It's safe to say totalise has his tongue firmly wedged in his cheek in his post. It's a good point about being in position on this hand too. I would much rather have 57d on the button than AJ UTG.

Position is power.

MMT around 50 runners?
9 final tables out my last 10 to be exact. 2 1st places amoungst them. so not questioning myself an awful lot no.
AK is my most common hand to exit a tournament on though yes. then again it's probably everyones..

i did moan (aka go insane) about a month ago coming to final table as the short stack. making it to chip leader with 5 left. and getting KK and QQ outdrawn 2 hands in a row. ah what a sport. ::)

And you won them by passing 57d on the button with 70 BB?

Canuck no worries, Totalise is taking the piddle.

I tend to pass these sorts of hands but instead i have a few chip collecting moves i like to pull every now and then when the cards are going dry. I agree and i think you can not just wait for big hands. In many books you are told to play very tight however they do not tell you how to get round being blinded away. I prefer making moves because i want to get to a stage where i do not need cards to win.

YES EVERYTIME. jeez how about making it a little more situational? sometimes i don't even look at my cards when i call a raise or raise from the button.

what i've been sayin is
IN THIS CASE. THIS ONE HAND.
on the table he's talking about, up against the type of players he was talking about, i probably would have folded as there is easier ways to get their chips. i also see no point in raising to 'pot build' at this stage.

You wouldn't limp into a pot with bad players?

You should always look at your cards.

he raised..