Experimenting in live play

[Canuck]

I am trying to become a better post flop player in recent months and I feel it is improving. I am experimenting with playing more hands and greatly increasing my hands when in good position. The following hand is just an example of this. I would like comments on it.

Live game, and I have 7000 chips. Blinds are 50-100.

I am on the button with 2 limpers at a 7 handed table. I look down and see  . I raise to 250.

The BB calls (stack about 10,000) as does one limper (stack about 16000). The BB was caught making a move earlier by this same limper and was trying to buy the pot, so I know he is capable of making a move. The limper it is his first live game and when I asked him if he played a lot online, he said no, only played a few times. He earlier called a turn bet of 2000 on an ace high board and bet 5000 on a river jack. He had jacks. In no way am I criticising his skill, just that he is inexperienced.

The flop comes out      . The BB checks and the limper bets 300. I am not sure where I am but I want to see a turn so I call and the BB folds. The turn is  . He bets out 1000. I flat call. The river is the  .

He then bets out 3000, and I go all in. Initially, he thinks about it for a few seconds, (not sure if he was thinking or trying to dtermine how much more) but he calls. I flip over my flush while he flips over  for the boat. Good night.

Now I know most will say dont play those hands and why call his flop or turn bet but again, I am trying to experiment my play and pick my spots better in the future. This is just an example where it didnt' work out. Other then the obvious comments, anyone have anything to say?

[Enzyme_]

ok the way i see this

150 (Blinds)
You raise with low suited connectors, and since this is cincs i agree u can get away with this.

3x250
- - - - -
900

Flop

Another 300 to see and u hold bottom pair prolly still call just to see its only 3 bb

900+600 = 1500

Turn

He bets 1000 pot is then 2500 and it costs ya 1000 to see so thats, 3.5 to 1 odds for a flush which u boards lowest pair and a low flush draw. i dunno if i would call here with such a low flush all he needs is to hold either  and another random diamond which all could be possible if he was straigh drawing.

River

3500 Pot and he Raises just under the Pot, i think your all in was justified cause if he only had trips Kings he would be in a bad position with 3 diamonds on the board so i prolly say all in move was justified and would make him think but then again hes got the boat so he wants the all in

[Royal Flush]

ok the way i see this

150 (Blinds)
You raise with low suited connectors, and since this is cincs i agree u can get away with this.

3x250
- - - - -
900

Flop

Another 300 to see and u hold bottom pair prolly still call just to see its only 3 bb

900+600 = 1500

Turn

He bets 1000 pot is then 2500 and it costs ya 1000 to see so thats, 3.5 to 1 odds for a flush which u boards lowest pair and a low flush draw. i dunno if i would call here with such a low flush all he needs is to hold either  and another random diamond which all could be possible if he was straigh drawing.

River

3500 Pot and he Raises just under the Pot, i think your all in was justified cause if he only had trips Kings he would be in a bad position with 3 diamonds on the board so i prolly say all in move was justified and would make him think but then again hes got the boat so he wants the all in

I am the reverse.

Pre flop good idea, you are deep pot build with suited connectors.

The flop, easy call.

The turn, the chance of him having a better FD is tiny. Folding here is horrible if we hit it is disguised.

The river he leads out with a pretty decent bet, i am curious at this point, i don't see any value in raising. Flat call.

[Canuck]

The river he leads out with a pretty decent bet, i am curious at this point, i don't see any value in raising. Flat call.

This is an interesting point and one that I admit I overlooked. At the time I felt that I was so far into my stack that leaving 1000 and change behind was fruitless, but you are right, I should have just called and lived to see another day if I was behind

Thanks

[JungleCat03]

I like the way you played it up till the river raise.

He leads out with a big bet. Flat calling is better here as you have far from the nuts albeit a very well disguised flush. Given the size of the pot, he will call you with worse hands it's true but the value you gain from the extra 2k or so chips you can riase on the river is not nearly as great as the value of the 2k chips you lose when you riase and he is ahead.

Ug, i agree with flushie.

[temp0r]

my advice would be if you're going to play this type of hand LEARN HOW TO PLAY IT FIRST.

super-aggressive players don't win tournaments because they get lucky from time to time in the big pots at crucial points. it's because after the flop THEY KNOW WHERE THEY'RE AT. you admitted in your post you didn't. why even try and play a style you're not equipped to?
another thing you did that a successful super-aggressive player wouldn't is target a complete beginer to pull off this sort of move. you don't REALLY know what this guy is going to do when he has the nuts or has nothing. super-aggressive players will target the pradictable 6 months of inet play tightish player because they can read them like a book.
considering the type of players you were up against and the deepness of your stack. you really should of just waited till some nice hole cards came along instead of pissing away your chips rather embarresingly..

[Enzyme_]

ok the way i see this

150 (Blinds)
You raise with low suited connectors, and since this is cincs i agree u can get away with this.

3x250
- - - - -
900

Flop

Another 300 to see and u hold bottom pair prolly still call just to see its only 3 bb

900+600 = 1500

Turn

He bets 1000 pot is then 2500 and it costs ya 1000 to see so thats, 3.5 to 1 odds for a flush which u boards lowest pair and a low flush draw. i dunno if i would call here with such a low flush all he needs is to hold either  and another random diamond which all could be possible if he was straigh drawing.

River

3500 Pot and he Raises just under the Pot, i think your all in was justified cause if he only had trips Kings he would be in a bad position with 3 diamonds on the board so i prolly say all in move was justified and would make him think but then again hes got the boat so he wants the all in

I am the reverse.

Pre flop good idea, you are deep pot build with suited connectors.

The flop, easy call.

The turn, the chance of him having a better FD is tiny. Folding here is horrible if we hit it is disguised.

The river he leads out with a pretty decent bet, i am curious at this point, i don't see any value in raising. Flat call.

prolly why your better

[Royal Flush]

my advice would be if you're going to play this type of hand LEARN HOW TO PLAY IT FIRST.

super-aggressive players don't win tournaments because they get lucky from time to time in the big pots at crucial points. it's because after the flop THEY KNOW WHERE THEY'RE AT. you admitted in your post you didn't. why even try and play a style you're not equipped to?
another thing you did that a successful super-aggressive player wouldn't is target a complete beginer to pull off this sort of move. you don't REALLY know what this guy is going to do when he has the nuts or has nothing. super-aggressive players will target the pradictable 6 months of inet play tightish player because they can read them like a book.
considering the type of players you were up against and the deepness of your stack. you really should of just waited till some nice hole cards came along instead of pissing away your chips rather embarresingly..

A bit harsh, he did say he was experimenting!

I just looked at the hand again and saw it was only 7k chips. This makes the turn call a bit closer to marginal although i am still making it!

considering the type of players you were up against and the deepness of your stack. you really should of just waited till some nice hole cards came along instead of pissing away your chips rather embarresingly..

75 suited is a nice starting hand, you think he should pass 75 suited on 50-100 with a 70,000 stack?

[Canuck]

my advice would be if you're going to play this type of hand LEARN HOW TO PLAY IT FIRST.

That's what I am doing! lol

I cant learn to do it until I try it. As I said this was a time it didnt work out. I am experimenting in different styles as I want to be able to play all gears well.

another thing you did that a successful super-aggressive player wouldn't is target a complete beginer to pull off this sort of move.

I agree with this statement and I will be looking for this next time I play.

you really should of just waited till some nice hole cards came along instead of pissing away your chips rather embarresingly..

I dont see it as embarassing at all. I know I can play good poker playing a tight aggressive game and cashing in when I get the cards, but I want to become a better player with more gears. I look at these hands as learning experiences that I can use in the future. In terms of super aggresiveness, I have to crawl before I can walk.

[JoeStrummer]

I am no expert and have no pretetions that I may/maynot become one, but surely you should be making these types of  , moves at a later stage when the pressures on and people are freezing up a bit?

[temp0r]

75 suited is a nice starting hand, you think he should pass 75 suited on 50-100 with a 70,000 stack?

hell yes.

although i think it was a 7k stack. thats still 70x the BB. why mix it up here when you should want to be winning small pots and keeping your stack ticking over until the blind levels rise?

[temp0r]

I cant learn to do it until I try it.

I dont see it as embarassing at all. I know I can play good poker playing a tight aggressive game and cashing in when I get the cards, but I want to become a better player with more gears. I look at these hands as learning experiences that I can use in the future. In terms of super aggresiveness, I have to crawl before I can walk.

okay sure but surely if you're yet to try this sort of thing why do it in a live tournament where you have a great chance of going on some with 70x BB? should you not be experimenting maybe in a long live cash game? - or on numourous online SnGs? probably both. live cash games so you have plenty of times to work out where you are on the flop. and the SnGs just because the quickness of learning.
i have actually done this and all it took was a sit down with some turbos for a few hours online employing the 'DN suited connectors stratergy'. think there's some articles on his site that go through this if you need any help but it should be pretty obvious to you really.
everytime you play a suited connector though you have to say to yourself 'wheres my oppotunity?' think about that one for a minute..

[Canuck]

I cant learn to do it until I try it.

I dont see it as embarassing at all. I know I can play good poker playing a tight aggressive game and cashing in when I get the cards, but I want to become a better player with more gears. I look at these hands as learning experiences that I can use in the future. In terms of super aggresiveness, I have to crawl before I can walk.

okay sure but surely if you're yet to try this sort of thing why do it in a live tournament where you have a great chance of going on some with 70x BB? should you not be experimenting maybe in a long live cash game? - or on numourous online SnGs?

As I said, I am experimenting, and I understand your point, but I am trying to mix it up and hopefully build a big stack early which is my goal of playing different hands. And I dont think you can compare playing suited connectors in a turbo to playing suited conectors in a live tourney. I play many different hands online and I am am trying to incorporate this style to live. The point of playing these suited connectors is to play them cheap and mix it up. I am trying to put myself in difficult situations so that when I play in bigger buy in tourneys with better players I can feel better prepared.

[Royal Flush]

Temp0r when you have 70 bb that is exactly when you should be playing 75 suited. Its a great structure and you want to just sit there and pass these huge winners?

[MrsLime]

Do you know why you are raising preflop?  This isn't a value raise (because you are behind AND underdog).  I feel that raising with 75s with position is a semi-bluff.  I.e. you're happy if everyone folds but it's not a disaster if you get called.  Certainly, if you hit the flop, your hand is disguised; if you miss, you can get away from your hand easily (unlike, for example, when holding pocket aces).

As Sklansky would tell you in his excellent book, a semi-bluff only works if you give the other players an opportunity to fold. So, I would have raised more preflop, to 600.  I mean, the way you played it the limper is getting 5-to-1 on a call and is not going to pass.  How much would you have raised if you had KK?

Also, this type of play is intrinsically tied up to your table image.  Are you raising with position all the time, or very infrequently?  Do you tend to follow-through on the flop regardless or do you normally slow down if you miss?  Are you the dominant player at the table or is everybody mixing it up?

On this specific flop, I would fold.  You have missed your flop, and a player has bet into you.  Even the weakest possible holding -- a flush draw with two cards higher than a seven --  he is favourite to win against you (you have bottom pair, no kicker, and a runner-runner flush draw -- hardly a hand to wet your pants about).  I don't like your call here, especially with one player still left to act.  What hand are you representing by calling?  A raise in my mind would pretty much be a pure bluff, to be attempted if you genuinely sense weakness.

On the end when you raised, honestly, were you thinking "I'm absolutely sure my opponent has king-ace or king-jack but he definitely doesn't have king-queen or king-ten", or "Woohoo, I've hit my flush"?