blonde poker forum

 

   Live tourney. Down to 9 players spread over 2 tables playing hand for hand until a final table of 8. I am on the table of 4 players.

   I am the 2nd chipleader with 130,000 chips with 810,000 chips in play.

   A new player has just moved to the table and I have never played with him before.

   He is the BB to my SB and the first time we both post, it is folded to me. I have 22 and raise to 10,000 with the blinds 2000-4000. He calls. I bet 15,000 on a rag board and he makes some comment about me stealing and folds.

   The next orbit it is again folded to me in the small blind and I have AK. I again raise to 10,000. He looks at his cards and immediately goes all in for an additional 85,000 to me.

   What would you do and why?

Call just because he is a cheeky barsteward.

A fold is probably a safe play but chances are you are in a race.  I would call.

I call .He moves in with any ace if he feels you are stealing.

This would be a spot for a patented phil hellmuth call.

Oh dear, I think you lot are in trouble.

Without peeking I immediately went for the call, expecting to be told it's the wrong move. 

The way my game is at the moment you've just called JTh & he hits the straight.

The thing is, after your previous move, you know he bit.  So by making exacly the same raise, you're trying to push him into the response, aren't you ?  If you didn't want him to push all in,  you should have made a different raise

 :dontask:

I want him to push in this spot and i would have made exactly the same raise.

First of all, I hate the idea of an 8 handed final. Playing 4 handed is a considerable disadvantage to the short stacks paying the blinds twice every 4 hands. Just plain wrong.

As for the hand in question: if you are in control of your table winning most of the pots uncontested while you are short handed I would tend to fold (even though it is likely he thinks you are stealing). If you are playing pretty tight and only treading water chip wise I would tend to call.

This is all assuming you have no read on the reraiser.

I can't figure out how you are second in chips holding only 16% of the chips in play with 9 players left. Does the chip leader have half the chips in play?

I call here as I'm not worried about him have Kings or Aces, and I want to catch up with the chip leader.

Fold and raise the next 10 hands in a row.

call happily

I get my chips in before I have had a count on what he has.

He has A rag and feels you are bullying with your stack.

My chips beat his into the middle

i guess I could ask, what were you expecting him to do, just fold "like a little girl".

I call. He is miles behind. Otherwise he is a really bad player. With a decent hand and position on the original raiser, then All In serves no purpose whatsoever.

It would depend on what you want from the comp.

If you are looking to "Cash first" then "see how high you can go" - its a fold

If you are trying to WIN the comp - then its a call

Would be an insta call for me every time ;)

I disagree with this, if you call you gamble 2/3rds of your chips on what is likely to be a coinflip.
You can fold this easily without harming yourself and steal away to your hearts content and get yourself into a situation with a better hand than ace high.
You don't need to gamble every hand to win a comp!!!!!!!!

What happened?

50p at the ready.

How would you play the AK then IFM?

It seems a waste to raise it up and then pass - you could just do that with any trash.

Call and flip at the same time.

Potentially a tournament winning pot.

In this situation i think you are probably 60-40 against your oppo's range.

It depends on a lot of factors.
I'm not saying that you have to fold AK to a reraise what i'm saying is that folding here doesn't mean you don't want to win. (this is what M3 is saying).
You can fold here and still win but if you call and he turns over 22 you are needlessly gambling IMO.

Call all day long.

I called.

He flipped 99, I lost the race.

Looking back, I called as I thought the possibility of him having AQ or AJ was too great. And I know, no doubt, that if I win that hand, I win the tourney.

I am a little disappointed though, as in hindsight, I risked most of my chips for a great chance to win but also I risked all my chips to have very little chance of winning.

I am glad to see most would advocate calling as did many people watching, but it is still nagging me on whether it was the right call

If there's a consensus with AK in this spot, whay would you guys do with AQo?

I probably call, I find it hard to give credit for a hand better than AQ in a 2 way pot.

So you're assuming we're calling all day long with AQs? :D

Many thing can happen in a poker tournament but when it comes down the the critical point, getting 50:50 on a position where you would get first or second prize money is too hard to turn down.
A fold only keeps you in the game, a call will make the real money.

Before seeing what your opponent had I was thinking I'd definitely call as well. If I was in your opponents position and you'd 'stolen' from me before and you've made the exact same move the next time I'd be tempted to push to test you. IMO you both made the correct move, but only one of you can win and unfortunately this time, it was your opponent.

Now would the villan push it from the psychological P.O.V with any two after making this comment?
and is it +e.v to risk 2/3 of your chips when you might be slight underdog i.e you suspect that your opponet has a pp  ?

i don't think it is a clear cut call.

I didn't respond to this before because I thought it was a no brainer. 

Having thought about it a bit more, there maybe is a case for folding.  But only if the table is playing too tight. i.e if you can fold and immediately pick up 6k on the next hand with a raise.

To those advocating folding - would you show?

ABSOLUTELY NOT, you couldn't show here because you would get it everytime and rightly so, i never show anyway BTW.

No way you can show here,

you will get all in every time you raise.

I don't like showing

this is a difficult one, if you win the race you deff win the tourney, but on the other hand if you lay it down you still have a big edge on the rest of the players , this is based on playing with canuck and with everyone else thats still left in.

the way this tourney is set up is the blinds go back down to 1k-2k at the final , ano that might sound bizare but thats the way its run. in this case i have to say its a fold. theres better spots to get ur money in but i understand the call after the way the last couple of hands played out.

Right, OK - just to clarify my point.

IN THIS EXAMPLE - ie the guy has been bullied of hands before and may suspect you are bullying again - he is EVEN MORE likely to push with Ax.

THATS why I said call - play to win - I would guess that I am a HUGE favorite in this situation (with what has happened before) - Yes ok, there is a chance he has a PP and we are racing - but so be it.

If I am being the aggressor at a table and I get re raised, I like to show that I am not going to be pushed off a hand by an all in - ok sometmes this backfires and the opposition will have AA - but again, so be it. _ Mr Thew uses this tactic alot, and I would say very successfully.

Oh, and BTW, yes I have folded AK preflop to an all in, but in this situation I would not fold.

Thank you for respnding all.

and m3boy this was my thiking exactly. I hoped for Ax to be flipped over and all the while knowing that if he flipped over a pp i was racing. I was being fairly aggressive and I didnt want them to think an all in would push me off a hand.


Your right Cambo. that is what makes this hand so difficult for me. If I am playing with players better then me, then yes, I should call and hope I win either against AX or a pp. But I feel like I was the better player or close to the better player then everyone there. I still think I could have won the tourney if I folded, but at the time I thought I was dominating him and that with his chips I coast to first.

i will think about this hand for a long time.

canuck,

when you say you think you are the better player, what does this mean? that you can fold sickenly +ev spots to hope to get one later on? or that you can expect to get a better run of cards then anyone else? Your edge in tournies comes from these spots, you have a choice... you can either call here, and take the edge, or you can fold here, and be the edge. Folding here is why good players have such an overlay against pther people, but it isnt the folders that have the overlay. Theres no man on the planet that can fold 60%++ edges getting bettr then 1.3/1 odds, in these spots,  and expect to have a higher EV through folding then through calling.

make the choice, be the edge, or take the edge.

Hmmm, i think i'll pass on being the edge - not sure who i'd be to be honest, i'll have to ponder that one and get back to you!!

What worries me sometimes is the word 'hope' in some of the hand analysis.  Funny often those hopes turn into dissapointment.

Or I don't want to show that I will fold to every all in- it was one all in and the next hand might be different. 

I am not advocating fold or call in this spot personally, but what i am not keen is 'I hope he has Ax. '  Your opponent was hoping you will have Ax as well, he did not wanted you to have TT+.  Also the very fact that in the first hand he chose to call you rather then  pushing it or folding to might be or might not be a sign of his approach to the game.  Why he did not just flat call it again? what were his actions through this particular round?


If you believe that you can outplay your opponents then one fold will not make a difference esp in the MTT where the size of your stack is extremely important factor in winning the tourney. 
If you lose 2/3 of your stack at this point, from now on you have to gamble more then when you had your big stack. 

As to totalise's 60++edge you are right providing that you know you have the edge and not hope for the edge IMO.

 Why many are so sure that he has Ax is really mind boggling.  This guy just came to the table, made a comment and nxt orbit shoves all in to the raise.  His all in then looks like a re-steal so it can be a perfect way to make canuck call with his hand esp that canuck is thought of as an aggressive player. 

I think great players use their aggression effectively but I am not so sure they just shove their chips all the time because they hope that someone has Ax and that they hope they have the edge. 

do you use poker stove? if not download it, put villan on a range of hands and see what your equity is. No hoping required :)

In a live game your poker stove can be very helpful. 

I don't dispute the fact that he might be ahead, but I doubt it if this guy after his comments would shove it with Ax.

Have you heard of poker tells and psychology?

Can i just say.

AK, high blinds, 4 handed.

I'd put in a different raise, or maybe even just call.  I'm quite happy to dump AQ.  Before by making exactly the same raise as before, I'm trying to lure him into a tilty response, this time I want to make sure I can understand his answer.  If I put in a min raise & he bullies me off it, well done.  Let's hope I get QQ or better soon, then let's see how you  feel about it

I am calling here for sure. You are racing or dominating as he knows you will fire at the flop and therefore AA KK would be unlikely.

My thought process might have been the same, but my decision sometimes different if I was all in, but you picked up a free round + 10k on the previous move, so my guess is that you have around 45k back even if you are wrong here. That would sugeest that one double and you would be back playing an average stack. With blinds only 4k and your chip count then its a no brainer imo.

You may have lost this one, but that will happen. If his cards were face up then you would want to call. All you can do is get them in when in front and pray that they hold!

A definite call from me. particularly at this stage of the tournament. If you don't play premium hands strongly you will have little hope of winning.  You should also think .... "what would I do if he said nothing about stealing blinds?"  Unless you know the player very well ... you should not pay too much attention to it .. and play as if he said nothing.

Early stages in tournaments you may fold AK as the key goal is to survive the early bloodbath

So if you know he has 99/TT/88 and you have AK you still call for 2/3 of your stack?

Just asking, because you are slightly behind there, so what you wil be praying for is that you hit not hold.;D

Richmore- I think you should think what players say to you and be able to get the gist what those things mean.  that's the beauty of the live game/ tells are an important aspect of the game, they save your bum (if you know what they stand for) more often then not... If you can't read the tells, then you are losing some of your edge.
 

No!

I am sure that your response was tongue in cheek, but to clarify, I would like a race to be the WORST possible sceanrio. AK v JT, I am not a massive favourite, but when not all in, I am favourite often enough to make it a worthwhile call. Ideal would be to find myself against Ax or Kx.

nope, please explain further

OT slightly I know but,,,,,, poker tells ans psycology :

Playing a cash game at Aspers, I am killing the table, winding everyone up, being the loud irritating type, and praying on the people who were obviously wound up by this - pure table talk .

There was this one hand, exact details I cannot remember, but it went something like this :

I am on the button - A5 (my hands not important till the end)

Player A raises to £10 preflop , 2 callers and I repot it (on the button) as I had many times before - sometimes with winning hands, sometimes with absolute filth!

Only playerA calls.

Flop 3 4 9.

Player A makes a continuation bet (well thats my take on it) and bets 3/4 the pot which I call

Turn K .

playerA now makes a week bet (£20 or something) - with str8 AND now a flush draw possible, my read was one of 10 10 or JJ and I think I can take the pot away here - he seemed scared of the king so I repot it.

He pushes all his chips in before I get my pot bet in.

Ooops, I think, I ask for a count to make it look like I am holding a strongish hand, but as it is only £16 more to call, I have to call.

PlayerA had KK in the hole - bad read from start to finish.

When the 2 hits the river, sent this guy mental! But more importantly I got paid off on neally every hand I hit from then on :)

In the same way that Saddam was 'slightly' mean to the Kurds?!?!


Still a fcking funny hand.

looks remarkably similar to a hand played in a cash game at BB1...............

 ;whistle;

LOL James
LOL Matt - yes it does, but the end result of the night was vastly different , I am pleased to say :)

James, it was one of those sessions where I could do no wrong, every hand I had stood up, every play at a pot worked, every 'seemingly' play at a pot i made (when holding the nuts) got paid off.

Definately a sick sick session.

I did have to take a young lad aside after relieving him of his £200 in 3 hands (not bad for a £1 £2 p/l game) and explain to him that my talk was all table talk and he should take nothing personal - especially at a cash game - I think he got the message

It wasn't a cheap lesson for him!

When you say 'table talk'  what exactly did you say to people?  Were you abusive, or just loud and alightly obnoxious?  It's definitely a ploy I've seen used to good effect - many times online.  Not something I employ (yet), but it's interesting to look at it from both sides and work out a strategy against it as well.

In no way was I abusive. I do not condone abbusive behaviour.

I was VERY loud and "in people's faces" - basically winding them up whenever I could. "you cant call this bet" "call and if you loose I will lend you £100 if you like" etc... etc...

I find this does indeed work well in live cash games, the table dynamics were perfect as well. Mainly rocks who hardly ever raised and 2 people I considered to be able to "play" poker rather than the cards.

Constantly raising ALWAYS annoys a table of limpers. THEY make the mistakes. I reep the benefits.

The young lad in question was sure I was bluffing - which I wasnt. I am also sure he would not have committed such a large amount of money on the strength of TPTK but he wanted to beat me badly!! His emotions got the better of him, which is the idea of speech play

Totally what I was getting at by saying 'hoping'

I know that I am either dominating him. ie A rag, K rag or I am racing up against a pp.
I am hoping he turns over A9 or KQ but even with 77 88 99 I obviously have a chance. I knew it was one of these, just 'hoping' it was the former

When I said I was one of the better players what I meant was that I felt I could pick better spots in which to play my chips. As in if I was playing Phil Ivey hu and this same hand occured it is a no brainer, I call diminishing the skill factor and increasing the luck factor. If I am playing a complete beginner hu I fold and try to play small pots or large ones when there are some board cards.