blonde poker forum

Internet MTT. 250 runners, down to final 20, in the money. You have 15,000 chips, average, as do the players to your left and right. Blinds are 500-1000, 10 minutes. You are in the small blind. Preflop everyone folds, except button, who limps in. Button is an aggressive player. In previous 30 hands, has on 4 occasions shown overt aggression to other players, by raising preflop and if reraised, putting them all in. Was called, showing  Ahrt Ks on one occasion to showdown. Has raised twice from button to take the pot, and is otherwise quite solid, folding on button preflop in unopened pot.
So he has limped, you look down to see  Qd Qc. You bet 4000 chips.
The Big blind folds. Action goes to button, who without hesitation pushes all in for 14,000.
What do you do?

Online I have to fold this, I would think he has AA about 98% of the time.

Really dont think i can pass here,  Money is made so now looking for the top places, behind to only 2 hands so easy call for me. (Plus i aint good enough to pass QQ) ;D

For sure, it's late in the game. Which of the hands that don't beat you would he limp with here though?

I think that perhaps your feeling was that he might have AA/KK might indicate he had those hands.  The limp itself made u suspicious.  If you fold here you are left with 9k.  Which in theory gives you some chances to get your chips back in other spots.  If he has been raising previously - why did he limped now?

If he was caught once and it happened he had AK, it does not mean he has AA/KK/ here, but the limp is very stinky. 

I have also noticed the limp reraise all in with AA to be currently fashionable in online tourneys but this would be a tough hand to lay down.

put em in

Have to call here 100% of the time.

When you called and he showed his aces did the poker client say "HaHa" in the voice of Nelson from the Simpsons?

I would of taken the free flop looking for the Q.

Like you I suspect AA KK.

But why raise 4000? leaving urself only 9000 back.

Presumably you will push on any flop without an A or K

You are not deep stacked enough in my opinion to raise 4000 and then pass on an A or K flop.

If you think he does not have AA or KK - then ship it in preflop.

If you think then he has AA/KK it is better to see the flop... and limp.

When these hands happen to you you always think there must be a way I could have got out of this.  I'm guessing he did have AA from your description in the opening post - you've basically described the player as if he could only have AA, which is probably results orientated.

It's button v blind, ten minute blinds, you can't pass.

The great thing about folding here is that if the button had raised - it would have been an easy move in.  By playing an obviously strong hand in the way he has we have the opportunity to get out of jail.

I'm obviously exagerrating a bit with my certainty that he has AA, but I think it is AA/KK a lot of the time.

doubleup, but if you are on SB - you would not like to see a flop?

Yes thinking about it - I would probably have been very suspicious about the limp.  I actually dont think I've ever seen a player limping on the button and then going allin without aces.

So limp then, if your stack is not huge?

Have you all lost the plot?

Trivially easy call. He has more than AA/KK

(http://orbita.starmedia.com/~necrose/Sci-Fi/Filmes/dredd.gif)

"I knew you'd say that."

Yeah, but this time its true!

Thanks for all the comments.
Playing online, you have to make this decision in about 15 seconds :( But there are only a limited number of card combinations he can have, and after this kind of incident I always wonder 'Was the information there?' The way I see it now based on what you say:

A. He can be doing 'random' or just pulling a move, maybe against what he sees as a SB steal in a 3-way race. This is unlikely since he has shown solid play before, sees me as a tight player now raising, and when showing strength before has had the cards to back it up.

B. Cards:
*Random junk: he doesn't play them. If intending to steal with them, why not steal preflop, it's only against the blinds, with position.NO
*Small to mid, maybe suited connectors. Limp with the intention of seeing a cheap flop. This would elicit a fold to a decent raise, or a call at best in the hope of hitting the flop, with best position. He goes all-in against a raise. NO
*22-77 He's limping hoping to hit a set. Would still only fold, or flat call a raise, hoping to make set or maybe use position on flop to steal. He's good enough to know that his reraise against his raise here is going to be called and small pairs are probably beat. NO
88-QQ Would have raised preflop against blinds, hoping to take it down then and there with what is probably the best hand. Did not raise, so NO.
Paint: JK QK,AJ,AK,AQ etc. As above. Has been shown to do it before. NO.

The only cards left are AA KK. He is an aggressive solid player, these tend to slow-play monsters. He has a mid-range stack facing threatening blind levels, as big a danger as passivity is scaring folk away, especially only 3 handed, with big preflop raises. Limp. Very good chance he has AA KK therefore. So he limps. When threatened, sees his chance to get it all right there against one opponent, so pushes. Once he has pushed, chances of AA KK go right up to about 95%.

I call, he has AA, hits set, it's all over. My call seemed ok at the time, actually it's indefensible. Medium stacked QQ looks like a monster, but the worst hand in poker is always the second best hand.

15 BB's is medium stacked ????

Medium, relative to the rest of the runners. In a 200 man tournament down to the last 20 and most of them are tight, don't expect many decent M's.

Or to put it another way: I can go for first, for several thousand dollars, sure. If I bust now I get about $60. Given that my stack is about the same as anyone elses, my chances of hanging about are roughly as good as theirs, and each one that goes gets me about $80, and at this stage of the game they *really* start to go. If I can see another 3 rounds my chances of making an additional $300 shoot right up, and it's likely I'll find a better spot. It's not like I'm ultralow and can't see another round. The fact is that I did see the rising blinds, did see my QQ, and did go with it, and I was wrong.

It's a limper who now suddenly wants to go all in. It's like a paired flop where the action checks round to you, you place a solid bet on your high pocket pair and strangely someone who checked is suddenly interested in calling? Alarm bells...

fold. he has aces.     standard.

Dont put yourself in these situations.

Ive said it before, limp and take a freeflop or move all in preflop - no decision then

I know what your saying and I kind of agree, but both ways there you go broke for sure. By actually playing the way he did, he had plenty of chance to get away from the hand and I wouldn't believe that the villain could have anything but aces after teh limp reraise. I am jamming or limping pre, but after your raise and his limp re-raise I think it is an easy pass.

How do you go broke by limping?

No Q hits and  I believe he has Aces, then it is an easy fold.

Because if you limp and the flop comes with no A or K, how can you now give him AA if you didn't preflop? His limp might be suspicious but it is only franked and noted after the limp reraise. If the flop comes jack high, you lead and he jams, how do we know he didn't button limp with AJ or KJ? We can't now pass (not that I advocate limping on the button with AJ or KJ in an unopened pot, but this is an on-line game).

Point taken, but if I limp here I am looking for a set and a set only. If I am convinced he has AA or KK preflop, then I am still convinced he has AA or KK post flop.

Of course yeah I agree with that. If you are playing them like a smaller pair and playing no set no bet thats fine - I had assumed that you were looking for an underflop and hoping the villain moves with  AK! lol

Nooooooooo lol.

The worst flop I could see after limping would be A Q x

eeek!!!

Occasionally over the last couple of weeks i have thought my poor form maybe down to my opponents getting better and maybe poker is not so easy any more. Maybe i will have to go get some honest work!

Then i read this thread and realised there is still bucket loads of dead money out there.

lol

QQ push there is the button limper's wet dream. Puts the BB out of action also.
If it weren't for LAG money, who would play this game?

Maybe you aren't paying attention, but when was the last time you saw, an apparent tag player, limping on the button, then sticking almost all his chips in, with JJ.

Probably about a week ago, i see it more with hands like 66-TT than JJ.

[[/quote]

Probably about a week ago, i see it more with hands like 66-TT than JJ.
[/quote]

I'd tend to agree

Sorry you weren't listening

TAG

BUTTON

ALMOST ALL HIS CHIPS

not loose donkey in mid position with half the chips in play

I agree.
A bit hard to notice the significance of a TAG button limper when you've been playing for 2 1/2 hours and you look down to find Colin & Justin. What is his 'psychological state'? Ready to come over the top with 22-TT? That psychological state in a TAG has already pushed it on the button.

so everyone who limps in on the button has AA??

The guy could have small pocket pair or suited connectors or he might have clicked call instead of fold by mistake etc... etc...

The guy in the small blind is going to be out of position for the entire hand post flop. He must raise here. The idea that he should just call and hope to flop a miracle set because the other guy "must have aces" is bonkers.

His raise with QQ effectively asked the question - "have you got aces"

you seriously saying that if the betting went

Button - limp

you with QQ - call

Big blind - check

flop comes A Q rag

are you saying you would not do all your chips in here?

No, I am saying that would be the WORST flop I would like to see.

Never said I wouldnt do my chips

but unless you have raised back at the button limper then how do you know he has AA?

he could have anything

For that matter if the flop came rag rag rag I'd be worried about the Big blind because he could now have flopped two pair with his 94os or whatever random hand he is holding.

I take your point.

If's but's and maybe's

Each to their own

Those are some great posts, johnbhoy, and I agree with everything you say. 3 handed at this stage of the game there is just no way I am letting that BB in for free, or for that matter, the button. Although the button limp felt a bit odd in the general context of play, I actually wanted to take the pot preflop and put in a bet I figured would push off a limper, and I was going to be position-crippled throughout the hand, as you say.
What you say about late game button-limpers not necessarily being AA is of course totally correct. But looking at his distinctive pattern of play, which I tried to show in my original post, something was already wrong, limping is not his style. The reraise should have set off alarms.

My point was, once you raise here, you have committed alot of your remaining stack - so why not push preflop if you want to take it there and then?

Probably because its folded round to the button and you want some VALUE out your premium hand.  Then to say if you decided to check (which would be slow play in this case) and the flop came A Q 2 or something, that would be the worst flop  possible for you?????   I honestly thought that you were joking when you said that the first time.


In fact - I've decided this is a topic designed to wind up up Flushy.

 ;busted;

I've been thinking the same!

Remind me if i need someone to play for my life that i should ask on 2+2!


And yes doubleup i was aware the question was talking about a TAG.

A line of thought for TAG with 88....."Hey i have 88 on the button, that's a good hand i should raise.....oh wait what if they thing i am nicking, then i will have to call a re-raise with 88 for the rest of my chips, and i read on a poker forum that i should never call for my chips (except maybe with suited aces) its all about 'getting it in first' ok i know what i will do i will limp it in, see a cheap flop and use my position. What's this, a raise from the SB, he could have a big range here, there is lots of dead money in this pot and now i have a chance to make him pass his probable 2 overs and take down a nice pot uncontested, there we go the BB has passed, i'm all in!"

Then he sits pissing himself laughing when he reads about how QQ passed.

....  and here is the rather embarrassing proof  (Flushy, tell me someone didn't post this on 2+2 for a laugh !!)

Seat 1: diicman (7325 in chips)
Seat 2: abel (10810 in chips)
Seat 3: hillbilly06 (5400 in chips)
Seat 4: tommern2k (16835 in chips)
Seat 5: soreanus (6380 in chips)
Seat 6: malteg (3435 in chips)
Seat 7: AtteG (8385 in chips)
Seat 8: Raindog2 (6570 in chips)
Seat 9: 17161514 (13275 in chips)
diicman: posts small blind 75
abel: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Raindog2 [8c 8h]
hillbilly06: folds
tommern2k: folds
soreanus: folds
malteg: folds
AtteG: folds
Raindog2: calls 150
17161514: folds
diicman: calls 75
abel: raises 750 to 900
Raindog2: raises 5670 to 6570 and is all-in
diicman: folds
abel: calls 5670
*** FLOP *** [Kh 9d Tc]
*** TURN *** [Kh 9d Tc] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [Kh 9d Tc 2d] [4s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
abel: shows [Qd Qc] (a pair of Queens)
Raindog2: shows [8c 8h] (a pair of Eights)
abel collected 13290 from pot


However in the OP, against a non Donkey opponent, folding the Q's would be a great pass IMO.  There is not much point trying to read opponents if you are going to ignore it when you have a good hand.  For every Donkey imagining the BB is imposing limpers tax there will also be trappy players with A's or K's.  Being able to make that distinction is what makes a great Poker player.

Guessing right is not what makes a player great, a great player is someone who weighs stuff up on the balance of probabilities and makes an educated guess.

Yep ... although sometimes it is a lot easier. They might as well be playing face up.

Flushy

TAGS don't think that way

Raindogs

This is a completely different situation - the tournament is not at the stage when raise or fold is the only normal pre-flop action.

I have friends who are TAG's......


lol seriously though i used to be a TAG, really i did.

Plenty of TAG's follow that line of thought, not shit TAG's good TAG's, don't confuse moron rocks with a TAG.

Playing 88 this way at this stage in online tournament is insane - the whole point about the play is that it is very difficult for the raiser from the blinds to fold - hence the debate we are having.  Why in gods name would you want to engineer yourself into a situation where you are either in a race or behind?

I will continue debating as if he was a TAG, but the OP suggests otherwise.

Why does it have to be a race or a 20-80, and why cant the SB fold (assuming he has air)

the problem with raising QQ here is that you are effectively turning your hand into 2/7os, as the button limp is AA or a hand with potential, so limp along with QQ, and adhere to the no set no bet mantra. This is especially true if they guy has been raising the blinds frequently prior to this hand... why would he raise AA when he has a history of raising from the button?

Because the blinds very rarely raise with air here - they are doing a little jig of joy in front of their pc cos they've got to see a flop for the first time in an hour.

Legend.

 ;gobsmacked;

ok believe what you want to believe and start limping with 88 on the button in the late stages of a tourney.  I'll not bother thanks

Start? lol, in this spot i don't limp 88 but i do limp a lot of hands on the button deep in comps. I have quite a high re-raise frequency when the blinds raise aswell. Guess i know why it works now!

I can't believe I agree with Flushy again. If I limp on the button with any two cards and someone in the blinds decides to raise it I ussually try to reraise..it's amazing when you're deep into a comp how many times the blinds will fold their hand if they have enough chippies left to do so.

"if they have enough chippies left to do so."

The whole point about the OPs hand is that the fold was a tough decision because he was very close to being commited.

I raised 4000 chips because I was not alert to the danger of the limper. So many people just limp there but his style of play is not common online: very aggressive but in very specific situations, and supertight otherwise. A player like this is raising every single time with 88 on that button. In this ten-handed table, it's just him and the blinds. He's selective, so is losing blind money like everyone, this is his chance and he lets BOTH SB and  BB limp in with J4 to hit J on the flop for free? No way. A good solid player is a good solid player. Also, this good solid player also knows that online 80 percent of the time in the final stages, a tight small blind that puts in 4000 of his 15000 is calling an all-in raise. If the small-blind were stealing there he would go all-in. The button wants this call.

In future I would still raise the 4000, QQ is normally miles ahead 3-handed and probably fold to the all-in from the button if and only if its this type of player. If it's an aggressive dutch guy I'm calling faster than he can reach into his jacket pocket and shout 'rebuy'. ;)

Specifically because he has a history of raising from the button? If he raises it's just yet another steal, and someone makes a stand against such pilfery with QQ. What makes a thief suddenly want to limp in and, oh, surprise, push against a raise?
And personally, I'm looking to make a set with pairs up to Jacks, and even then at a push and probably long-handed. My Queens are good unless I see big action on overcards, etc., or strong evidence of AAKK preflop. Mannn, you guys is tiight, huh? ;)

I agree with what you are saying.

I was arguing that you did everything right up until the guy in the Button moves all in.

For me the debate starts at this point as to wether you should call the all in. Up until then I feel you did everything right.

I think calling the all in or folding is a 50/50 decision to be honest. In the heat of battle I think I would have called and then look back and think "what an idiot" in the cold light of day

I've bookmarked this thread so every time i go through a bad run i can read it and remind myself that i do have an edge in tournaments afterall!

Repeat this mantra over and over: I must go to Glasgow and play these people. I must bring lots of money. I must be the table LAG. I must go to Glasgow....
We might be tight, but it's not like we're laying down Kings

;)

Just Queens

You might take our Queens but you will never take our Freedom.

I think you've converted me to the darkside, Royal. I don't even recognise my play any more.

     2holein1s is at seat 0 with 1445.
     jack 9 is at seat 1 with 15555.
     cbus72 is at seat 2 with 2680.
     ab-sane-mane is at seat 3 with 8380.
     AmigoSencillo is at seat 4 with 4400.
     hottotrott is at seat 7 with 9800.
     USukAtDis is at seat 8 with 5635.
     NEWHITE is at seat 9 with 5830.
     The button is at seat 0.
     
     jack 9 posts the small blind of 100.
     cbus72 posts the big blind of 200.

     2holein1s:  -- --
     jack 9:  -- --
     cbus72:  -- --
     ab-sane-mane:  -- --
     AmigoSencillo:  -- --
     hottotrott:  -- --
     USukAtDis:  Jc Kc
     NEWHITE:  -- --

Pre-flop:
 
          ab-sane-mane folds.   AmigoSencillo folds.   hottotrott
          folds.   USukAtDis raises to 400.   NEWHITE calls. 
          2holein1s folds.   jack 9 folds.   cbus72 folds.   

Flop (board: 6s 4s Ts):
 
          USukAtDis bets 200.   NEWHITE calls.   

Turn (board: 6s 4s Ts 8c):
 
          USukAtDis bets 1500.   NEWHITE folds.   USukAtDis is
          returned 1500 (uncalled).   

         

Hand #39018313-110 Summary:
 
     No rake is taken for this hand.
     USukAtDis wins 1500.

I hope you dont play for a living.

 rotflmfao
I hope you do

min raise pre flop, when you wont have position, yuk, min bet the flop, yuk, massive bet the turn, i am yukking again!

Were you rolling a dice on each street to determine your action?

na, just bored. Knew he had SFU tho.

Then why bet the full pot?

To close off whatever draw he was on or whatever other card he was hoping to catch. It's a 20 bux tourney and beer is doing my bidding, don't fret over it, I'll be tight in the morning.