blonde poker forum

This is being debated on the APAT forum after the question was raised  by ThinkerJE.  I thought I'd post it on here to get some more views.

First level of a deep-stack tournament with a decent blind structure.

You have KK. 

You don't know any of your opponents, and you have no idea how any of them play.

Someone raises to 200 (4xBB), you make a standard re-raise - they shove all-in making it 10,000 total.

Call or fold?

This is my personal view -- but I would call. If it was just me and him, every time. If there was someone else in the pot maybe not...........

I would be glaring at the player hoping to get a read. 1st level or not, they ought to be oozing information after 30 second stare down

unless I got a huge hint, likely hood is I'd be passing. too much chance of AA.

I'm not passing

If it was Ironside, I would know he had Ace King and didnt have a clue how to play it if he missed a flop, so I call and pray the ace doesnt hit.

But I just cant put him on AA to make that over re raise in the first hand ... CALL CALL CALL.

Call...

I call, now i have never played an APAT event but im assuming the standard is kind of middling given this player is unknown. He has ak,qq often enough here to justify calling.

With knowledge of our opponent for example if it was AdamM i would find a pass.

I call without any shadow.

I passed KK early on in the last of the Blonde/Virgin challenge.....Sharky told me he had AA and I believed him!!

I'd say there are decent players, there are terrible players, and there are those in-between.   I think in this case you have no idea which they are.

If the player is unknown to you then I would call

If the player is known to be nitt-ish, pass

If the player is trading off a nit image and actually has AK, then good luck to him/her..pass

Walsall at the weekend..I have never seen a tighter first few hours!!

Standing of play in general in APATs is way higher than a year ago IMHO

I would be thinking he has JJ and doesn't want to see a flop.

If he had AA he ought to be milking you more rather than scaring you off.

Just my thoughts.

I call, & what will be will be.

I don't put someone who makes that huge overbet on AA, but they do that sometimes with AA on the off-chance of a caller with a Premium Pair or AK.

But even if he makes a standard re-pot, chances are it will all go in at some stage if the Board does not come with an A. So it comes to the same thing really.

FOLD and wait for a better opportunity with either more information or folding equity ( I folded KK in the Amsterdamn Masterclassics last year in same situation, ended up going out with 79s later on though!)

FYP

 ;whistle;

To paraphrase Dan Harrington:

Call, if he has aces you can always outdraw him.

instacall

Call.

A fold isnt bad here but it would be bad if you show or basically tell him youve folded the hand, you've just let your table know early on that you will fold the second best hand to an overraise and IMO, you've thrown the tounramnent away then anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-OgL9T5oSQ

Title of the video says it all

(You can seem me in this one, wearing a green t-shirt.)

if it's you I pass the KK to the 200  ;D

Interesting spread of opinion on this one so far. 

I'm looking forward to getting Aces in the first level at the next APAT event.  In fact, I'd like to see aces at any level in an APAT event!

call

I cant beleive that any player would push all their chips in with less than Aces at this stage.

I read an article a couple of years ago I think and they said they would consider pushing early on in a deepstack comp with Aces to see if they could get a bad call.

If you fancy your chances to go deep I don't think folding is a bad play at this stage. Not knowing your opponent doesn't make it less likely he has Aces...it probably increases the likelihood. Lots of new players in their first deep-stack tournament are going to play Aces like this...wanting to avoid a bad beat, internet experience etc...

So if I didn't know my opponent was a good player then I think Aces would be the most likely hand. Calling off everything pre-flop in the early stages without Aces is a big risk to take imo...especially if you can play.

That said....I probably call as well.

insta fold for me - way too much risk at such an early stage of the tournament.

I clicked fold but have since changed my mind....

Call- cos I know I can use those chips.

Folding will only result in me wasting a few more hours to bubble

depends what the buyin and standard of tournament i am playing in

sunday mill i call in a heartbeat

GUKPT main event or any other main event £1k + i fold because i dont feel players wil risk their entire stacks at the risk of bumping into AA here without AA

tbh... any online event bar the stars or tilt £1k's in which i still may call, im not calling.

Good Fold  ;)

Instacall for me.  But thats the gambler (fish) part of me taking over, I figure I'll either double up nicely at the beginning giving me the opportunity/choice to tighten up or see more flops later on (depending on how the table is playing, how tight, weak/strong/aggressive the players are) OR I'll go bust and hit the bar. 

If I bust I wouldn't regret my decision either.

LIVE TOURNY - You don't win a tourny in the first stages, so although a double up is nice going out is the risk.
Its a conservative way to play AA but what other hands goes all in so early?
The original re-raise is suggesting a strong hand and I think this play is looking for a call from that player who may decide to go with AK, QQ or indeed KK
I would need a strong read to put all my chips in here and there should be plentty of tells available.  Poker is about making good decisions based on the info available so there is no definitive answer.
I would edge towards a fold here personally.

Internet tourny though its an insta-call 

 Kc Kh

They look to good to fold for me!!  May as well go for glory as your QQ's later in the tourney will only run into A's so may as well get it done now.  God loves a goer...... 

In a deep stack tournament I'd fold.

Rather than take any sort of risk trying to take all their chips in one go, I'd rather safely take all their chips a bit at a time in subsequent pots.

Situational.

aments ... obv.

a) i dont like to rr KK early in position early on in a deep comp.
b) is the table/field tough, are there donkeys about, how many runners/top heavy is the comp etc. This is sooo situational. Most likely if the player is a player i pass. What is he pushing with please?

What is? 


That's the situation.

for me it depends.

i fold. He's got aces.

 ;carlocitrone;

situational

 ;carlocitrone;

80/20 call/fold

What makes you differ with your action? 

a number of variables. 

lol just kidding, i feel that live and for a decent buy in i pass depending on the player obv, however online i really cant pass unless i have played alot of hands with him before.  I just think that as everybody has already said lots of muppets online will play AK-QQ-JJ etc like this. 

Plus if i had travelled a long way and had a last longer bet with somebody i wouldnt want to lose that bet! 

Which are? 

;D

What is your opinion Kinboshi, would you call or fold ?

In this situation, without any information on the player, I fold.

But like I said, I hope I can get Aces early in the next tournament I play...

Youre failing to take into account such important factors.

Who he is.
How hes said All in.
The way hes sat.
The way hes put his chips in.
The way his eyes/hands are moving.

Using all of these i would usually try and get a feel for how super strong he is.

It sounds like im claiming to be Phil Gordon or some amazing reader of players but i dont mean to, but without seeing him do these things, i find this decision impossible to make, and am suprised other are saying different. All those factors are what i meant by situational.

Id definetly need to see him to make this decision.

TBF saying all that crap id probs call and hope for the best.

Shippppp.

FYP

OK - if he's stuck his chips in timidly, aggressively, purposefully, humorously, slyly - what difference does it make?  You don't know the player and you're going to make your decision based on your ability to read him?

I wouldn't know if he's got AA or JJ from his body language.  Any tells I spot I'd have to largely ignore as I wouldn't be sure if they're false tells or not.  Having not played with them before, I have no idea if they are vastly experienced and skilled, or if it's their first tournament. 

You mentioned me.  So say it was me - would you call or fold? 

I fold against you mate. I would fold against LeKnave too.

I wouldnt be able to get my chips in fast enough against ChipRich or TheGib (just using all them against examples).

I think it's too much to risk on the opening hand of a tourney like this.  Even if he has ace rag, AK, QQ, JJ or whatever, you can still lose, even with KK you can still lose.

There will be plenty of opportunities to get chips as the day goes on, pass, just pretend you folded 62o and carry on.

There are two players in the whole world i think i can pass KK to, pete singleton and mickey wernick because i know them quiet well.


Along with that it would have to be very very deep.

Ive never passed KK before and probably never will.

 ;carlocitrone;

You probably will want to reconsider now as I think there will be plenty of people moving all in with AA after this thread, based on ho many would say they'd call. ;carlocitrone;
And wow you'd never pass KK ????

really?

Someone who I've never played before - someone who I don't know if he's a complete novice or a skilled and experienced player.  First hand of a tournament I wouldn't trust my read on someone I've never seen before.  His tells might be an act - how do I know?

you can tell a lot about a player before the first card is pitched.

The bet is screaming AA, you're just looking for information to confirm this for you before making a very tough but necessary pass.

I'm with you on the pass, but not sure what I'd need to see to convince me to call.

Some suggestions please, so I can fake them when I shove with AA early doors ;D.

i wish i was telepathic like adam :)

It was a serious question.  I've made a few reads in my short time playing live that I'm very proud of.  But I'm usually worried that I'll misread weakness and think someone's strong (and vice versa) - not knowing when it's a real or fake tell.

What would people be looking for here, or whenever someone makes a bold all-in move?

You cant really call on a read alone in this spot, You have no prior knowledge of this person he may look nervous. But why? Maybe its his first major tourny, maybe he got AA busted last time and is convinced his bad luck is coming all over again.
Or he may look strong, but maybe hs an idiot that thinks AQ or JJ is the nuts.
Just Pass the KK dudes...........

I'm folding (you know that), but say later in the tournament and you have whatever, and someone shoves.  What do you look for to 'convince' you to call?  I've sometimes found that asking them questions can help (if they answer!).

I'd really be interested in what experienced players say here. 

pm tighty, thats what i did!

it's not telepathy KP but you could certainly call it instinct.

People are always giving off information. You just get a feeling for it.

I'll have a think about it and post a bit more detail at lunchtime when I have a bit of time.

ok, not specific to this situation, here's what I'm thinking.

In my martial arts group we spend a lot of time discussing body language. Reading aggressive and passive signals in others and learning to spot when those signals are fake or exaggerated. Also sometimes trying to appear passive when poised to throw your knockout hook, or conversely, trying to psych someone out with aggression, when you'd rather it not get physical. Sounds a lot like poker to me.

The old advice is sound. when you're not in a hand, practice putting active players on cards based on betting patterns AND behaviour / body language.

Something I did from early on in my live poker is make sure I got to the bar early and keep my eyes and ears peeled. This is another overlap with the martial arts. I know it sounds paranoid, but a good martial artist should be assessing almost everyone around them for threat levels. It mostly happens on a subconscious level until a potential threat is picked up, then it snaps into a conscious assessment. Again, poker is the same.
How a player conducts himself at the bar, buying in, taking his seat, arranging his chips, looking at his cards, etc are all building a picture before your first clash with him. Mostly these things will be going on subconsciously but the odd thing will attract your attention. You're using these 'feelings' about a player to assist in your decision making later on.

Applying some of this to the OP hand, an analogy would be;
Him quietly - "Give me your money!"
You calmly but forcefully - "You've picked the wrong guy to mug here mate, I'm quite handy."
Him Frothing at the mouth -
"I HAVE A GUN AND I'M GOING TO SHOOT YOU IN THE FACE!!!!"
Now you can either hope he actually only has a banana in his pocket and stand and fight, or you can give him the benefit of the doubt and run for the hills, waiting for the next time when the conversation goes;

Him quietly - "Give me your money!"
You calmly but forcefully - "You've picked the wrong guy to mug here mate, I'm quite handy."
Him Meekly - Sorry to bother you mate, I'll go and pick on someone else"

Is the right answer - and the right thing to do - but, how much faith would you really put in it right at the beginning of the tournament without any appreciable knowledge of how they play their cards.

i.e. Would you really be happy to make the call based purely on the read of his body language and your instinct?

I think I'm pretty good on picking up reads, but tbh I don't usually look for them until after the flop has been dealt, as I find that's the best time to pick things up.

I'm not looking for any reads here though - I'm not passing Kc Kh here whether he's sitting quiet as a mouse or dancing on the table.

You aren't making the decision based solely on your read of their body language.
The bet is screaming AA. you should be 90% sure of his hand based on the betting.
You're looking for an instinctive read on the player to help you get over the line for this very hard but necessary laydown.
I doubt I'd see anything so convincing I'd be able to change my mind about the Aces.

FYP

That's the thing.  His bet screams AA.  If the 10% left screams otherwise, is that enough to override the range you think the betting puts him on?

He might still kill me with the banana in his pocket.

I don't think this particular decision requires reading body language. It's a pass for me.

if he makes it 200, you make it 600 and he makes it 2000, then you might be looking for information telling you pass / call / push.

Weakness is often indicated by...

- Distance from cards. Is your opponent hunched forward or leaning back in their chair. Pshycologically this tells you how attached they are to the cards they are holding. However, this is better as a history read when compared to their default posture and cards they have previously shown

- Face Touching. This is a common pacifying gesture and usually indicates weakness

- Smiling. A nervous smile is a good tell because your opponent is trying to establish a good relationship with you and thus wants to avoid conflict. Something he wouldn't do with Aces.

These are the 3 main ones I use but really you need some history to back it up and like others have said...it wouldn't be a good foundation for a decision.

Because if I had the Aces against a good player I would be leaning back, scratching my nose and nervously smiling for all I was worth.

I think he was just pleased to see you.

:dontask:

I'd call, banana or no banana

What about a pineapple?

then I'd fold

Although I value your opinion, I'm going to have to check with the man from Del Monte.   If he says yes, then I'm happy.

the man from Del Monte, he say pass

I'd be folding wouldnt really be worried about  Ad Ac as i dont think they would have pushed all in so early but i think ak could be in the hole and putting all in they do need to see all five community cards,but if there had been a standard raise before with 1 or 2 callers then i would call as i would be thinking at least 1 ofthe others would be holding an Ac

Surely thou arest joking? If you think he has AK you should call 100% of the time mate..really..you should.

absolutely. You have to put him on AA to pass.

I'd kill him for the banana in his pocket

i hear what yr saying but its still too early in a deep stack mtt to risk someone hitting maybe ive played too much on sky,,

it's never too early for a nice double up.

Maybe im just too much of a gambler put quite a few ppl in this thread have said that they would pass even if they thought he had AK. To me that sounds stupid or am i stupid for thinking thats stupid!?

I'd never pass if I thought they had AK.

If I thought they had AA I would pass, but I think you'd both have to be very nitty for that to be the case.