blonde poker forum

Wanted to know if there are any thoughts about this hand and this hand is part of a section I'm quickly building up on my blog called "my 50 worst mistakes."


4) Thanet GUKPT, £1000 Main Event, Final hand

I had brought bacsk 26250 for the second day, and on this hand right at the end of the first level, found myself blinded down to 18,700. The hand was interesting both in two ways; firstly reading table dynamics, and secondly the challenge of trying to read someone's else style of play at this stage of the tournament, where the re-raise all-in becomes a real feature.

My eliminator was Simon "Aces" Trumper, a really strong player, but one whose style was possible to get some insight to. This was partly because his attitude seemed to be very similar to mine, that he would go out of his way to avoid the 50-50% gamble for all his chips. He had been involved in two of the three previous pots, and both would yield a big clue for this pot, where I ultimately busted out.

  Firstly, an interesting hand had created both alot of discussion and good banter, with Mike (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=287) Ellis (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=287) eventually calling the clock on himself! Simon "Aces" Trumper held pocket tens in the small blind, and had decided not to move in before the flop to Ellis' hijack raise, even though the stack size would have fitted perfectly for the re-shove. In stead, he moved in OOP when the flop produced no ace or king. It isa move that I really like as it does alot to reduce the variance of tournament play (Ellis incidentally folded pocket nines with seconds left on the clock, a well considered read confirming his class)

Two hands later, Trumper had then raised UTG +1, been called by Ellis on the button, and had the small blind shove all-in. He had some odds to make the call for a big pot, but eventually chose to pass.

The reason I have given details of these two hands is that they not only give an insight into his style, but change the dynamics of what may happen in subsequent hands. In particular, the last hand can be of great importance to the current one, and a question you should always ask yourself when a player is involved in two consecutive hands is "What happened to this player in the last hand, and how is it likely to affect this one?"

Proceeding to the hand in question, "Aces" limped UTG for 1,600, and an unknown player limped to the right of me in the CO. With blinds of 800/1,600 (100), this meant there was the pot already contained 6,500 chips, a decent fraction of my 18,700 stack. In this scenario, I will often be willing to push. My ace-ten is not a hand I love in this spot (as if you get caught, you will never have the two live cards that, say, 98 suited may offer), but it was deinitely better for the push than a random hand.

My decision would of course hinge on the read I had on the hands of the two players to my right. With the guy on my right limping behind, he was surely just looking for the chance to play a cheap pot, and so I would need a good think about Trumper. TWo things seemed to be in my favour; he did not like to gamble pre-flop, but principally he had been forced to lay down after raising in the previous pot. This meant that, if he had found a super-strong hand on this hand, he would surely have raised. This is a feature of every player's game, whatever their style, and combines the two emotions of "well, I was frustrated that they re-raised last time, but now let's hope that they do it again."

As I was able to eliminate a big pair from Trumper's range, it seemed ripe for the  move in. Within the next thirty seconds, however, he had quickly shipped it, turned ace king, and I was getting on my bike back to Birmingham. (Of course the board had also come out without a ten, but those days are long gone!)

I have thought alot about the hand , and realised my mistake. My thinking was right on one level, but I failed to consider a whole second level of thought. It was fair to elimiate aces, kings and queens from Trumper's range, but having done that, I should have thought "Well, what is it that Simon is limping with if it is not one of those hands?"

Simon (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=400) Trumper (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=400) is very skilled, but also very solid. This is important to know, as it would probably mean that the frustration of being re-raised out of the previous pot might make him now fold some hands that he might sometimes limp with. I had taken off the top off his range before moving in, but had not stopped to realise that I should maybe taken off the bottom as well.

I do not know whether I realistically could have guessed this at the time, but there was a big clue that he might have in fact have exactly ace-king. I should have thought of it like this- Simon has shown that he likes to avoid 50-50% races, and may be frustrated about being re-raised off the previous hand. Therefore, he could well be pulling a really strong move, which is the limp with ace-king in early position, intending then to re-raise all in, if there is a raiser. Now, you can be the on forcing the decision onto 1010 and 99, rather than facing that decision with ace-king yourself.

There probably could have been other weaker hands he might have limped with, but I should at least given the danger hand of ace-king the biggest weighting in his range.

It was a big lesson for me that I shouldn't make any decisions based on a positive factor, before I have taken the time to consider whether there are any more worrying factors to build in.

wp "Aces," gg nh fu wong to me


Link removed by moderator

lot of respect for ur game+ attitude stu, but how do you expect to win this without racing a lot?

tl;dr

As you correctly summarise, what Simon is limping is the key to the whole hand, what was Simon's stack at this point it makes a difference i think. Without any reads this is an insta shove for me.

Fwiw in Simon's GUKPT reports hetalks about limp/ raising ak utg on day 1.

i read trumpers report on the TT hand, and thought he played it just about as badly and exploitably as possible. If the flop comes Axx then he is likely to check/fold letting his oppo bluff him off the best hand. I hate any open limp deep in a tourney and with your AT i would be very cautious and probably fold. Id rather reshove on a LP raiser than shove into an EP limper any day of the week.

p.s Up the owls

Other than me saying it is, this is the best comment on the thread.

I would have passed. As soon as Simon limped, I thought he had a big hand. Simon had limped into very few pots, so I think you're going to be called and dominated way too often in that spot. I also think a 'frustrated' raise it too obvious at that table, especially UTG, so saw no reason why he couldn't have one of the top three.

OP is obv on the windup

Cheers for the comments guys. Sorry for the very slight delay, was just busy busting out of another poker tournament,but all sorted now.

Yeah, I think you all have a good point. It comes down of course to thinking what Simon is likely to have limped with, rather than what he would have raised with.
It's an interesting hand, as it's all to do with how players react to the table dynamic of being re-raised the hand before. I think it does change alot of possible limping hands into folds, especially for a player like Simon who is much closer to the conservative end of the spectrum than the reckless. (To answer the question, Simon had about 30,000, so had me covered by 12k)

Can I even raise to get away? Maybe make it 6,000, and leave myself a chance to pass for the remaining 12,700? This is actually a move I never really consider in a tournament with an M of less than 6. It is thin, but might just have value here, as I can be sure ST would not reshove with anything that ace-ten was beating.

Problem with the hand is of course than ace-ten is just sure to be dominated by every hand that can call me. Do you think you're more liekly to move in with 98 suited in this spot? And how far would you take this? Better J7 suited than ATo because of the range of hands that are calling you?

-----

ActionMan- Yeah, I think the tens vs nines hands is interesting. It's rolling back the years a bit and using a move that is rarely used in tournaments now, as players' reshoving range has opened up so much, and now almost always includes a pair of tens.

I like the sentiment behind the move (reducing the variance of racing agaisnt AK), but I think there is a fault in the logic. If a player is going to move-in on any flop without an ace or king, he has to realise that this means he is willing to go broke against a pair beating him (here, jacks or better). Therefore, he might as well check a low flop (or in this case the flop of Q88). The he gains value if the other player wants to fire a continuation bet bluff, or move in with a hand like 99 or 77, which might  be able to get away from Trumper's out of position all-in.

(Wednesday are back. Now for Barnsley!)

i was referring to another hand of TT simon played, where he did the same move on day 2, flop was 567 and he dodged his opps 88

Simons poker tracker stats would be like 11/6, i would pass pre without blinking

Was thinking 8/3!

And Stu u getting paid per word u write or something because a hand where u ship less than 12bbs in with AT in a tourny is probably worth 20 words max :)

Actionman, yeah wrong tens hand, it looks like there were two very similar spots with tens in the small blind. I agree with you about the move, but I don't think it's quite as bad as you think. It does open him to getting bluffed off a A22 board, but very few players in these things even think about turning 77or 88 inoto a bluff, and would just check it down. The main problem is c-bets with air, and I would be interested to know if he really would lay down on K22.

The main problem for me is not the flat call before the flop, but the lead out. It loses alot of potential value against lower pairs and c-bets from his opponent, and yet has zero fold equity- there is no way his opponent is folding a higher pair.

The strategy almost seems to assume he is playing against AK just because someone raised, which has got to be a mistake?

Dubai- No, I still get my dollar a day however much I f*ng write. Are you coming to Dublin?

I think you are putting a lot of focus on what Simon would limp with as opposed to raise with. Whereas I think it would be better to shift your focus to ask what he would enter a pot with at all under the circumstances. You know he is a strong tournament player, who has just been pushed off a pot, and here he is limping UTG. What would he normally limp UTG with? Pretty tight range I would assume. Now here he is limping in 1st position after being pushed around moments ago. Is he just putting 1600 out there to be pushed around again? I would doubt that. So why IS he putting 1600 out there? A fold can be found quite easily if you think along these lines rather than making a distiction between limping and raising. The way he would be feeling means entering the pot at all from such a vulnerable position with a weakish hand is just setting himself up for more misery. Which I suspect he wouldn't do.

i still hate the limp with AK with a passion

Why do you hate the limp?

Open limping is just so bad

open limping with antes in play is terrible. 1st level with small pairs i can just about live with

He is clearly limping to balance his open folding range

lol

That doesn't answer the question as to why you think it's bad.

Your evaluation is good, re: big pairs and the cutoff.

The move isn't bad against certain players, but I personally wouldn't make this move against Simon on the basis of how he plays. He isn't one to limp in here with KJ or something cos he's steaming a bit from the previous hand. Just let this one go and wait for a better spot...

didn't you bust out of a london EPT limping AK?

Open limping with antes is awful from the kind of player that doesn;t know whether their hand is good enough to raise, or just want to see the flop.

However, I've got some time for open limping, if it's with the intention of re-raising all in. Presumably that was his plan here?

Please stop!

What good is there from open limping?

Open limping is nowhere near as bad as you guys say:

If you've got the right stack to re-raise all-in, it can be better to do this with AK. Now the 99/88 hands might choose to pass, rather than being the ones moving in on you after you raise.

It's also given WAY too much respect amongst budget players. You will generally get an "oooh" around the table, and can represent anything on the flop.

If your nickname is ACES and you limp from early position, that's about as scary as poker can get.

you have to be on the windup here stu

Had to check my calendar. I thought it was 2005 and on ladbrokes with all the utg limp re-raising suggestions going on

Arguing about the merits of limping UTG is all rather pointless. As a poker player you want to be looking to find an appreciation of WHY villain limps in this very situation. If you can't do that you push with A-10 and we make a big mistake. The op very kindly provides some excellent history regarding the circumstances of this hand. From that we know how Simon is feeling. He's feeling like a big player, who fancies his chances, who has just been beaten down with an all-in straight in his eye. He's not liking that feeling. When he sees A-K he just auto-limps in the hope he can fist-pump shove all-in. And he does that because it will feel good. I guarantee you that he raises with A-K here if had just won that previous pot. No doubt.

So the lesson is to be wary of is Trumper entering the pot at all at this point. This should be warning enough not to ship with A-10. The guy is good enough to sit back and lick his wounds for a bit if he doesn't have genuine strength. That's why he just folded. He's not tilting and he's not hoping to see a cheap flop.

What are u talking about?

You can break that down into 7 words.

"DONT SHOVE WHEN A NIT LIMPS UTG"

Stop writing 100 lines of pointless drivel

Hey, didn't your mother ever tell you not to answer with a question with a question.  ;)

Are you saying that never ever is an open limp an acceptable play?

You are funny

I can't think of a single situation where a limp is better than a raise.

no way. deffo there are spots to open limp, normally if u dont think an oppo will call an open but might make a huge move to gather dead chips pre.

Example?

thing is alex a player who will make a big move to gather chips pre after a limper is the player who will 3b jam over your open. The risk of limping a big hand and geting 6 callers is not outweighed by the fact some loon might jam 87o and race against your AK. blind on blind is another matter, but you have to be sure of your man.

This hand

Someone might spaz out if you raise

I think the stack sizes are important here. There were a number of stacks sizes (like Stu's) that would be pot committed if they raised and a limper reraised. Stu perhaps over analysed the situation, but there were a few players at the table who probably wouldn't have given the utg limp a second thought and also raised (and subsequently be committed) with a dominated hand.

LOL

Clearly i am not on the level of thinking of Flushy or Dubai.

Mantis got closest to the truth.

First of all you have to remember i have played for 14 years , don't have an A B C game and have  made 30 + finals in excess of £500 buy in so do not react to standard situations the same way as some players or ever feel any pressure. Eg i dont go on tilt or let my emotions be effected by the preceeding hand.

Having returned day 2 with 33,000 chips , just over average i was in no rush and getting a feel for the table. The hand was not a case of limp , shove and call . I limped , there was one flat call , Stu raised to 10,000 , i reraised all in and he called.

The reason i limped utg with AK was exactly because most players would assume having seen me fold the hand before that i am easy to push off a hand when in fact i was setting up the events that unfolded.

The second hand with TT was simple to play , i figured the raiser for a range of hands and he would have to call preflop if i moved in , depending on the texture of the flop and my read on his reaction to it would determine whether i push or not. Sometimes being first to act is stronger than last.

I am probably old school compared to most players but i prefer to play with strategy reads and instinct than maths and pressure.

Cheers

ACES

Haha nice one Simon.

All i meant is i think you are limping utg and folding to a raise or shove here approximately 0% of the time, if im wrong fair enough :)

Which is why I'm so pleased to have had the opportunity to Stake you, Simon.

Let the boys have their fun, but when it comes to a deep knowledge of the game, & almost unparalled record of success, you've been there, seen it, & done it. That's all that needs to be said.

Post more please, you have much to offer this Board.

Do you think Simon has played more comps than i have? Do you think Simon has won more comps than i have?

Assuming Simon has played 1 tournament every day for his 14years of playing i would have more experience....

Not having a go here it's just incorrect to assume Simon has more experience than myself or Dave.

Can someone pass James his dummy please.

But online experience is different to live games.  No? 

It most certainly is - very different.

Mr Flush would likely wipe the floor with Simon Trumper Online - I'm not even sure Simon plays Online.

B & M is a whole different game, & I'm happy to back Simon rather than almost any other player n that department at any buy-in Level. And I'd back Flushy Online if I could - though I think someone like Tom McCready would give me a better run, more times than not.

But that misses the point completely.

Both players can teach guys like us a great deal, & they can do that not by saying "that's right/wrong/drivel", but by explaining "why". That's the clever bit, & that's why we have a PHA Board.

You are entirely corect in your assumptions here.

It's just my view, you are a far better Online player than he is (does he even play Online?), but he knows how many beans make five in B & M stuff.

And when it comes to explainng why he makes the plays he does, it's "no contest".

I, amongst most of the blondes, ache for you to help us with our online games, by explaning why we should, or should not, play certain hands in a certain way.

Mr MANTIS probably gets it wrong as often as he gets it right, but at least we can see his logic, & therefore consider it's merits properly.

And ring me back, instead of running away as soon as I get on the front foot with you. You rung off so quickly, you must have been on a promise. ;)

Sorry was on a train (calm down) and we were filling very fast at Gatwick so had to quickly go, i will call you later if you so desire.

I like Simon, he is a nice bloke and always good conversation so this is nothing against him at all personally but if Tikay would like to crossbook myself against him or Flushy against him in any live tournament that we all play then please let me know. The same goes for any online tournament on the PLANET if he would like to crossbook myself against Red Dog or Flushy against Red Dog then id be happy to oblige.


Im sure im getting punked here, where is Ashton?

Jesus il even give a 10% premium just as an incentive to get this bet on!

Lol, just LOL.

Been thinking the same thing!

This has just made my day. Thank you all involved.

post deleted, cause i think its a wind-up also.

Interesting thread.
1. Some standard dross on here about not wanting to take coin flips. Unless you are playing with no antes/massively long clock/against loads of donks then you have to take marginal spots like 95% racing/5% dominating etc. By passing in these spots you then need to consistently get in 70/30 spots. They just don't come often enough in normal comps.
2. The `bore brothers', Flushy and Dubai reel out the standard internet nonsense about never limping. This is just pure garbage. There are numerous highly profitable situations in which to limp, especially in live play and especially when players don't have a read on your game. Simon's spot utg with ak when there are 8-15bb stacks behind him is just one perfect example. These 2 `internet geeks' follow like sheep all the pocket5/cardrunners cult carp.
If either of them ever made it past the first 2 levels of a live mtt they would realise there are plenty of
clowns who you could flash `the aces' at, but they still wouldn't believe you have them and shove in over your limp with all sorts,
3. I have played with Simon a few times and think he reads situation superbly. However, the stop and go with tt
is just horrendous. You could write a list longer then this thread why the way he played the hand is almost as bad as possible.
4. All in all I think I am edging towards tikay's selections on the crossbooking/last longer selections.

rotflmfao

[X] Level worked for me.

 ;popcorn;

Not gonna embarrass people and say who it is, but "someones" OPR stats.

Pokerstars-

 Game Prizes Profit ROI ABI AFS R/A ITM ITM 
 Hold'em NL  $54,604 <$0 -41% $270 2210 20% 47/344 14% 
 Hold'em L/PL  $1,287 <$0 -75% $71 235 1% 9/72 12% 
 Omaha  $0 <$0 -100% $22 95 0% 0/1 0% 
 Omaha Hi Lo  $0 <$0 -100% $100 329 20% 0/5 0% 
 Other  $0 <$0 -100% $215 1548 0% 0/2 0% 
   $55,891 <$0 -43% $233 1844 17% 56/424 13% 

Incase you cant read that, thats a -43% ROI

And Full tilt

 Game Prizes Profit ROI ABI AFS R/A ITM ITM 
 Hold'em NL  $10,299 <$0 -40% $300 2047 0% 6/57 11% 
 Hold'em L/PL  $0 $0 0% $0 0 0% 0/0 0% 
 Omaha  $0 $0 0% $0 0 0% 0/0 0% 
 Omaha Hi Lo  $0 $0 0% $0 0 0% 0/0 0% 
 Other  $0 <$0 -100% $216 932 0% 0/1 0% 
   $10,299 <$0 -41% $299 2028 0% 6/58 10% 
 
Thats a er -41%.

To limp or not to limp? Good question
 

Hey! I was on your side Camel!

save the green

haha

This is one of my fave ever threads!

lol

Dubai as if you've ever folded Ace Ten preflop in your life!

I saw him pas JJ! Getting tight in his old age!

Flushy and Dubai,

There is really one fair way to measure a player's success in poker. It's not what kind of game they talk, or what they might seem capable of, but their results.

Anyone can claim any achievements they like on the internet, and so the only true way to measure a poker player is their live results. At the moment, this would make Simon (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=400) Trumper (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=400) a far better player than the two of you. His list of results is far longer (admittedly partly as he has played for far longer), but also more consistent.

This is a shame, as I suspect that you are better players than a solid member of the old school; in fact, probably much better players. (And this is not meant to be of detriment to Simon at all, I think he has a great game).

However, alot of being a good player is first of all getting off your arse to play, and then really giving a damn when you get there. This is part of what Simon does very well, and this could translate the real talent you have into something that everyone can respect. Until then, I think you have to respect the many achievements he has had.

If i cash for $1m live but spend $1.2m in the process that does make me a good player?

The point about live scores is an extremely valid one imo.  How many players have extremely impressive looking CVs on the Hendon Mob database but in fact enter every big buy in live tournament going and are in fact down for their activities?  Whether this is offset by sponsorship/endorsements is another issue, but I think it's far easier to obtain an online tournament player's ROI.  A case in point (ignoring the fact that he is bought in by sponsors for most tournaments) how much has Phil Hellmuth for all his success actually spent in buy-ins over the years considering he would play any tournament for any buy in in the world given enough media exposure?  What is his real ROI on his buy-ins?  Up I'm sure, but not as impressive as his roster of cashes would suggest.

Live player career results need to be taken bearing this in mind I think.

+10000000    but dont tap the glass

open limping with antes in play is horrible imo

the games are still good

+1

unopened pot.

One of my fave threads ever.

Bet that flushy will never win anything live.

One massive level from Stu?

Classic thread.

Dubai is the greatest.

Oh My god.

Where was I in 2008?

If id been born 3 years earlier i swear to god id be a millionaire

Truly this, love the thread.


 Lil dave no you wouldn't rotflmfao

Lol remember this.

Solid read from Tikay- Flushy only had a 500k year live and I only had a 800k year online. Fair enough Mr Trumper doing a cracking job at DTD, but poor Red-Dog needs to take down every online comp from now till December 31st to get Tikay out of it

should have booked in the high roller.


ud be hosting sky pokerz now

Actually agree with this going through reading some of the posts of this thread !

God Bless you Pete.

You're probably the only truly terrible big winning player in the UK. In fact, I can't work out if you're so good that no-one can understand the levels your game reaches or whether you're just awful but run like god. :)

This thread is amazing.

lol @ people arguing with Dubai.

U so funny an you right i am terrible as thats what happens when u mix old school wt new ! But hey thanks for the compliment Mr ABC online one dimensional Pro ! X

Mate I'm beyond terrible. Way beyond terrible.

X

Had to be done. Love this thread. Both heroes now WPT champs

ha loving the bump

Time machine please

having re-read this, what I can't quite figure out is...

What the hell were stu and simon doing going to thanet?

grade A bump!

Haha so true! I remember having to google to find out where the hell thanet even was