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Author Topic: Elimination hand at Thanet GUKPT  (Read 14366 times)
easypickings
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« on: October 20, 2008, 05:14:55 PM »

Wanted to know if there are any thoughts about this hand and this hand is part of a section I'm quickly building up on my blog called "my 50 worst mistakes."


4) Thanet GUKPT, £1000 Main Event, Final hand

I had brought bacsk 26250 for the second day, and on this hand right at the end of the first level, found myself blinded down to 18,700. The hand was interesting both in two ways; firstly reading table dynamics, and secondly the challenge of trying to read someone's else style of play at this stage of the tournament, where the re-raise all-in becomes a real feature.

My eliminator was Simon "Aces" Trumper, a really strong player, but one whose style was possible to get some insight to. This was partly because his attitude seemed to be very similar to mine, that he would go out of his way to avoid the 50-50% gamble for all his chips. He had been involved in two of the three previous pots, and both would yield a big clue for this pot, where I ultimately busted out.

  Firstly, an interesting hand had created both alot of discussion and good banter, with Mike Ellis eventually calling the clock on himself! Simon "Aces" Trumper held pocket tens in the small blind, and had decided not to move in before the flop to Ellis' hijack raise, even though the stack size would have fitted perfectly for the re-shove. In stead, he moved in OOP when the flop produced no ace or king. It isa move that I really like as it does alot to reduce the variance of tournament play (Ellis incidentally folded pocket nines with seconds left on the clock, a well considered read confirming his class)

Two hands later, Trumper had then raised UTG +1, been called by Ellis on the button, and had the small blind shove all-in. He had some odds to make the call for a big pot, but eventually chose to pass.

The reason I have given details of these two hands is that they not only give an insight into his style, but change the dynamics of what may happen in subsequent hands. In particular, the last hand can be of great importance to the current one, and a question you should always ask yourself when a player is involved in two consecutive hands is "What happened to this player in the last hand, and how is it likely to affect this one?"

Proceeding to the hand in question, "Aces" limped UTG for 1,600, and an unknown player limped to the right of me in the CO. With blinds of 800/1,600 (100), this meant there was the pot already contained 6,500 chips, a decent fraction of my 18,700 stack. In this scenario, I will often be willing to push. My ace-ten is not a hand I love in this spot (as if you get caught, you will never have the two live cards that, say, 98 suited may offer), but it was deinitely better for the push than a random hand.

My decision would of course hinge on the read I had on the hands of the two players to my right. With the guy on my right limping behind, he was surely just looking for the chance to play a cheap pot, and so I would need a good think about Trumper. TWo things seemed to be in my favour; he did not like to gamble pre-flop, but principally he had been forced to lay down after raising in the previous pot. This meant that, if he had found a super-strong hand on this hand, he would surely have raised. This is a feature of every player's game, whatever their style, and combines the two emotions of "well, I was frustrated that they re-raised last time, but now let's hope that they do it again."

As I was able to eliminate a big pair from Trumper's range, it seemed ripe for the  move in. Within the next thirty seconds, however, he had quickly shipped it, turned ace king, and I was getting on my bike back to Birmingham. (Of course the board had also come out without a ten, but those days are long gone!)

I have thought alot about the hand , and realised my mistake. My thinking was right on one level, but I failed to consider a whole second level of thought. It was fair to elimiate aces, kings and queens from Trumper's range, but having done that, I should have thought "Well, what is it that Simon is limping with if it is not one of those hands?"

Simon Trumper is very skilled, but also very solid. This is important to know, as it would probably mean that the frustration of being re-raised out of the previous pot might make him now fold some hands that he might sometimes limp with. I had taken off the top off his range before moving in, but had not stopped to realise that I should maybe taken off the bottom as well.

I do not know whether I realistically could have guessed this at the time, but there was a big clue that he might have in fact have exactly ace-king. I should have thought of it like this- Simon has shown that he likes to avoid 50-50% races, and may be frustrated about being re-raised off the previous hand. Therefore, he could well be pulling a really strong move, which is the limp with ace-king in early position, intending then to re-raise all in, if there is a raiser. Now, you can be the on forcing the decision onto 1010 and 99, rather than facing that decision with ace-king yourself.

There probably could have been other weaker hands he might have limped with, but I should at least given the danger hand of ace-king the biggest weighting in his range.

It was a big lesson for me that I shouldn't make any decisions based on a positive factor, before I have taken the time to consider whether there are any more worrying factors to build in.

wp "Aces," gg nh fu wong to me


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« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 07:25:38 PM by TightEnd » Logged
AlexMartin
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2008, 07:55:30 PM »

lot of respect for ur game+ attitude stu, but how do you expect to win this without racing a lot?
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gatso
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2008, 08:34:32 PM »

tl;dr
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2008, 09:29:23 PM »

As you correctly summarise, what Simon is limping is the key to the whole hand, what was Simon's stack at this point it makes a difference i think. Without any reads this is an insta shove for me.

Fwiw in Simon's GUKPT reports hetalks about limp/ raising ak utg on day 1.
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action man
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 09:50:34 PM »

i read trumpers report on the TT hand, and thought he played it just about as badly and exploitably as possible. If the flop comes Axx then he is likely to check/fold letting his oppo bluff him off the best hand. I hate any open limp deep in a tourney and with your AT i would be very cautious and probably fold. Id rather reshove on a LP raiser than shove into an EP limper any day of the week.

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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2008, 10:35:54 PM »

Id rather reshove on a LP raiser than shove into an EP limper any day of the week.

Other than me saying it is, this is the best comment on the thread.
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snoopy1239
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2008, 10:53:08 PM »

I would have passed. As soon as Simon limped, I thought he had a big hand. Simon had limped into very few pots, so I think you're going to be called and dominated way too often in that spot. I also think a 'frustrated' raise it too obvious at that table, especially UTG, so saw no reason why he couldn't have one of the top three.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 11:01:31 PM by snoopy1239 » Logged
Royal Flush
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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2008, 12:04:20 AM »

OP is obv on the windup
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easypickings
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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2008, 01:50:46 AM »

Cheers for the comments guys. Sorry for the very slight delay, was just busy busting out of another poker tournament,but all sorted now.

Yeah, I think you all have a good point. It comes down of course to thinking what Simon is likely to have limped with, rather than what he would have raised with.
It's an interesting hand, as it's all to do with how players react to the table dynamic of being re-raised the hand before. I think it does change alot of possible limping hands into folds, especially for a player like Simon who is much closer to the conservative end of the spectrum than the reckless. (To answer the question, Simon had about 30,000, so had me covered by 12k)

Can I even raise to get away? Maybe make it 6,000, and leave myself a chance to pass for the remaining 12,700? This is actually a move I never really consider in a tournament with an M of less than 6. It is thin, but might just have value here, as I can be sure ST would not reshove with anything that ace-ten was beating.

Problem with the hand is of course than ace-ten is just sure to be dominated by every hand that can call me. Do you think you're more liekly to move in with 98 suited in this spot? And how far would you take this? Better J7 suited than ATo because of the range of hands that are calling you?

-----

ActionMan- Yeah, I think the tens vs nines hands is interesting. It's rolling back the years a bit and using a move that is rarely used in tournaments now, as players' reshoving range has opened up so much, and now almost always includes a pair of tens.

I like the sentiment behind the move (reducing the variance of racing agaisnt AK), but I think there is a fault in the logic. If a player is going to move-in on any flop without an ace or king, he has to realise that this means he is willing to go broke against a pair beating him (here, jacks or better). Therefore, he might as well check a low flop (or in this case the flop of Q88). The he gains value if the other player wants to fire a continuation bet bluff, or move in with a hand like 99 or 77, which might  be able to get away from Trumper's out of position all-in.

(Wednesday are back. Now for Barnsley!)
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action man
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2008, 02:56:16 AM »

i was referring to another hand of TT simon played, where he did the same move on day 2, flop was 567 and he dodged his opps 88
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Dubai
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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2008, 03:10:19 AM »

Simons poker tracker stats would be like 11/6, i would pass pre without blinking
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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2008, 03:13:52 AM »

Simons poker tracker stats would be like 11/6, i would pass pre without blinking

Was thinking 8/3!
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« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2008, 03:14:00 AM »

And Stu u getting paid per word u write or something because a hand where u ship less than 12bbs in with AT in a tourny is probably worth 20 words max Smiley
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easypickings
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« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2008, 01:54:23 PM »

Actionman, yeah wrong tens hand, it looks like there were two very similar spots with tens in the small blind. I agree with you about the move, but I don't think it's quite as bad as you think. It does open him to getting bluffed off a A22 board, but very few players in these things even think about turning 77or 88 inoto a bluff, and would just check it down. The main problem is c-bets with air, and I would be interested to know if he really would lay down on K22.

The main problem for me is not the flat call before the flop, but the lead out. It loses alot of potential value against lower pairs and c-bets from his opponent, and yet has zero fold equity- there is no way his opponent is folding a higher pair.

The strategy almost seems to assume he is playing against AK just because someone raised, which has got to be a mistake?

Dubai- No, I still get my dollar a day however much I f*ng write. Are you coming to Dublin?
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2008, 02:38:17 PM »

I think you are putting a lot of focus on what Simon would limp with as opposed to raise with. Whereas I think it would be better to shift your focus to ask what he would enter a pot with at all under the circumstances. You know he is a strong tournament player, who has just been pushed off a pot, and here he is limping UTG. What would he normally limp UTG with? Pretty tight range I would assume. Now here he is limping in 1st position after being pushed around moments ago. Is he just putting 1600 out there to be pushed around again? I would doubt that. So why IS he putting 1600 out there? A fold can be found quite easily if you think along these lines rather than making a distiction between limping and raising. The way he would be feeling means entering the pot at all from such a vulnerable position with a weakish hand is just setting himself up for more misery. Which I suspect he wouldn't do.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 03:15:26 PM by MANTIS01 » Logged

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