blonde poker forum

£350 buy in Live MTT. Hero in for £35.

40 left, 5 Paid, 11k average

Hero 20,000. Not me. Image "tighter than you tighty"

Villain 21,000

blinds 100-200

Villian Loose, raises liberally, aggressive post. Shown a lot of "paint card" type hands at showdown having been original raiser, and hitting striaghts/flushes irrespective of pot odds

Villain raises to 600 in MP

Hero looks at  Ac Kc. Flats.

Flop  Kh  9c  4d

Villain bets 1500, Hero calls

Turn  6c

Villain bets 1500, hero raises to 3000

Villain pushes.


Critique of Hero's play pre-flop and flop please, plus your action to the push.

ta.


Hopefully Hero will then identify themselves if you aren't too harsh......!

hate the min raise line here. But once i have minraised the turn im not folding in a million years

critique of pre flop. Really weak, scared even
               flop.     Dunno if he is trapping or scared still. Im looking to get lots in on this flop. I donk lead hoping to get raised. Or check raise.

Surely the only reason we would min raise is with the hope that he would shove and we get it in otherwise i really don't see any reason to do this,i also ain't keen on the min raise but if that is the reasoning then it worked a treat.

You mention that he got into the tourney for £35 so is this outside of his roll and was he possibly uncomfortable getting into tricky spots.If so then i think should definitly be looking to raise it pre flop and not get complicated with flating pre.If the player is comfortable playing flops and mixing it up and therefore not concerned about the amount being played for then I defintly don't mind the flat call pre.However,we couldn't really hit this board much better than we have with top pair and nut flush draw so i think there's no way we're folding in this spot especially against the opp described.

So basically what trigg said in one line just get it in and if he has a set, 2pr we are still live

It's difficult to comment on Hero's actions alone without knowing his thought process. I mean action man could be right that his pre-flop call stems from simple weakness. But I like the pre-flop call. If hero is a real rock then raising is going to expose his hand strength prematurely. Calling for the 600 gives Hero position on an aggressive opponent who doesn't slow down after the flop. This could be a very good situation. Assessing the texture of the flop before jamming too many chips in is a better strat for this guy I think. If he raises, Villain is sure to come with him, and can he handle post flop play vs aggressive oppo if he doesn't hit? Calling will max profits if he hits and min losses if he don't.

Flatting Villain's flop bet is perfect because it's part of the hand disguise plan. I would say the turn min raise is horrible cos it isn't part of the hand disguise plan. Unfortunately the problem we have is that Villain jams the pot for 1500 on the flop which tells us he has nada and then bets just 1/3 of the pot on the turn whch means he has 6-6. I think just calling the turn keeps everything kinda consistent and lovely. As played you have to call the all-in.

Ugh butchered. Dont CR the turn without a plan to get it in if he pushes.

I think preflop is fine given that you dominate so many of his holdings and are deep. I think the flop is fine too. On the turn, i totally hate that min checkraise. Does hero balance this as a bluff? Does he ever do it with less than a top pair top kicker type hand? I really doubt it. If villain is a thinking player you just dont get much more value from the hands you beat. I dont mind another check/call actually given stack sizes and how underrepped our hand is, obviously check-raising on the river if a club drops and almost always if a A or K peels. You have taken such a passive line and villain is right sort to fire three barrels.

As played, i like huge stacks, so i call (and bink v 99 obv). 

Obv standard play is to 3b pre or c/r flop. Nittier trappier play is to cr the turn, but if so have a plan for a push........................

Villain has 21,000 alex  ;)

yar just saw :)

So would you fold then,i think the only hand we are generally behind to is 66 as mantis said where as i think he could have AK(so we're freerolling to the flush),KQ,JQc...

I would definately 3bet pre .. I want to play the pot HU with loose villian, calling could let in others who want to see a cheap flop...  

Not sure about the flop tbh... Raising gets value from worse K's but probably folds out all other hands with no draws out there.. I think its probably best though as the times he does have a K you can get max value..

Dont like the min raise on the turn at all, villians shove puts you in nasty spot but hand been played so passively and under repped I would get it in I think

Dont we have position here?

Hero does. On the button.

which my original post should have said, apologies

I think villain thinks were making a stand here. He has bet 1/3 of the pot and been min raised.

Without being at the table/knowing the player it is difficult to put an exact read on him, but i'd get it allin as i think he has something along the lines of straight and flush draw and we're ahead and killing his flush draw.

I think hero passed and was shown 87/J10/Q10 clubs etc.

this

the gay cr is horrible but has surely achieved it's objective. if the objective wasn't to induce the shove then wth was it?

playing this deep I'm happy with flatting pf and flop play

What you have to ask yourself is why does Villain bet 1500 into a 1500 pot on the flop and then bet 1500 into a 4500 pot on the turn? Why this sudden change in strategy? Is the turn bet a weak, feeble second barrel stab? If it is why would you raise that bet? Or is it because the 6 improved his hand to the degree that he's suddenly betting small? If it is why would you raise that bet? There is no way he flopped a monster imo. The 6 either gives him a set or completes 2 pair. Maybe he picked up a club draw and wants the river cheap. Why not give him that cheap river? This is how we are playing the hand.

Hero plays the hand perfect until the turn imo. The real mistake he makes is not considering the real sudden drop in bet aggression from Villain. So he plods on with the trap without the awareness that something has suddenly changed. Calling the turn bet because of this weird bet change would have continued the perfection imo.

We'd be unlucky not to be ahead here.

If Villian has a set gg wp but we already know Villain opens liberally with paint so KJ KQ K10 are possibly in his range and we have all these combos fairly crushed. After a (pardon my terminology) gay minraise on the turn he could very well shove any of these hands as well as bluff raise combo draws QxJx10/78clubs.

Occasionally he'll have googled us with K9 or something which we've kind of invited on ourselves by not repopping it pre. He can have AK too in which case you scream 'FREEEEEEEEEEEEROLLLLLLLLLLLL' and put the 4 of clubs in his eye.

Another thought is that by the way Hero played this hand (i.e a little scared) I'm thinking it may have been obvious to others that this was the case and hence Villain realises that he can push you off a huge range of hands. Not that I'm advocating bluff shoving on rocks when they minraise me but this super move is in the arsenal of a lot of live players.

In summary, I call.

Thanks for all the comments so far Lads.  I'm the 'Hero' Tighty's post relates to.  We've chatted a bit about it and he suggested getting other views.

Some more info. on me:

Yes the buy in is out of my league.  I wouldn't be there only for winning the seat.

I'm not frightened by buy ins once I have the seat won and I never think about the potential prize until we get closer to the money.  Don't like counting chickens before they're hatched.  Would rather concentrate on playing 'ABC' poker up to that point.  

As for Villain:

It was nearly a race to see who could get his chips first.  Any suited cards were great, face cards were OMG and suited face cards...he nearly had an orgasm when he got those.  

My thoughts on the hand:

I flat called the pre-flop raise saying I'd see the flop and decide what to do then.  Didn't cost the world and I figured I was deffo in with a shot if the flop hit me right.  AK is nice, but it's not a made hand.  Where I know I messed up in hindsight was the mini raise on the turn.  It pretty much told him exactly what I was holding and I let that fact slip from my mind at the time.  I spent a good bit of time thinking through his previous hands and betting patterns before I called the all in.  He flipped over AA.  FML.  First time the guy gets a real hand and I'm stuck up to me neck in it.  If I had folded, I'd still have about average stack.

When I got up to leave there was a big debate brewing about the hand.  One Lad says, "It was OBVIOUS he had aces"  to which another replied, "Have you not been playing at the same table we've been for the past couple of hours?"

Sigh.  


  

Last comment 'have you not seen how he's been playing' says it all really. As for the other guy's comment - well everyone in casinos seems to be an expert after cards are on their backs.

Against a 'maniac' going broke here isnt that bad. If you wanted to play small ball with him though, like how you started the hand, calling the turn is a better play.

Yeah that is the lines i was thinking along was going to say i think he had JQc but no way can narrow his range this much when not at the table but just with description from tighty this is hand i'd be putting him close to.I think hero called and opp got there brutally with 10 river.

Also agee with the perception we've giving as we don't look that strong  and think the villain believes he can push us of our hand with his weaker holding

Mantis i generally find that weaker players lower there bluff barrelling bet i.e strong 1st barrel weak 2nd and therefore dont think he has hit that 6 directly with a set but much more likely on a draw.Everyone seems to be critical of the turn min raise which i generally don't like however,if indeed he is on a flush/straight draw we've got him to get it all in on the turn when we've got him crushed so hasn't this play worked well in this situation as long as we call and 1)Our read was this, that he was on a draw and our read was correct and 2)This was hero's reasoning for the min raise

Since it was tighty who posted this up and we are unaware of hero's ideas/thoughts in this hand not sure we can say he she (whoopsie) didn't consider the bet sizing and his different reasoning for the way parts of this hand we're played.If he did call and was correct on his read regardless of the outcome he has played the hand perfectly no ?

PS I'm not fixing all the other he's no sexism ment of course

just a cooler

Well jamming the pot for 1500 on a bone dry K-9-4 board didn't get me thinking A-A. You call this bet anyway (indicating a K or a set) and then he decides that betting 1500 into 4500 when the board gets more dangerous is a winner. WTF??? Are you sure he didn't have 6-6?? Anyway the guys who said it's obvious he had A-A are wrong. For it to be obvious you would need to be at one with the wtf yo-yo betting habits of a screwball.

wow, if a lass check/mins me on the turn and i have AA i call and check call riv. Villain is fearless

UL Laxie,don't you just love these live "pro's" who come out with ridic remarks like "obviously aces",did you pour a baby guinness over his head  ;)

The guys who say it was obvious he had aces are the guys who will never be winning poker players and would think these last 2 pages were utter gobbledigook,have i spelt that correct ?

Don't think villain was fearless trigg more likely i got aces and i aint folding, u not agree ?

3bet pre and try ur best to get 100x in, you have AKgreen yo.

Posted by: mondatoo

If the 2nd barrell on the turn is a weak bluff then raising is futile imo because he will just fold. If he has just a draw, getting it in for 21k is going to be harder said than done with 1 card to come imo. There is little chance this guy will just shut down on the river anyway. And if he already has a set or cough A-A you get stacked. So all in all I can't see how raising the turn, for any amount actually, improves anything.

QFT

Yeah i agree with that mantis but was just saying that in this situation against this oppo the fact he has shoved over our weak looking min raise if we are looking to get it in then the play has worked yeah ?

He was oblivious to bet sizes.  Gut shot draws were his speciality.  He'd push all in with them and call any bet you threw out there if he was on one.  He'd call with middle pair, top pair, any hit or draw at all.  Dream opponent if luck is on your side.  I wanted his chips and was (in my mind) challenging him on the turn.  'Oh you've hit that board then?'      

As for the one who said '"it was obvious"...  I know that guy and have knocked him out of tourneys in the past.  Would be a cruel waste of drink IMO.  

So, I guess the next question is:

When you're up against someone who is utterly reckless, how do you know when you're ahead and when to pack it in?

yeah, wow! thats like the only hand we are beating when we get checkminned on on the turn.

Pre-flop

I flat call here as well, deep-stacked and in position, also NO ANTES! Im guessing if the guy is opening a lot of hands he probably is just going to fold if you 3 bet pre and u had 900 chips to a 20k stack worth almost exactly nothing in the context of the whole tournament. If he has shown a propensity to call a lot after getting 3 bet then by all means do so and play an inflated pot in position and get his whole stack when his inferior Ax or Kx connects. But from my own experience frequent openers will just give up when 3 bet pre-flop, especially with no antes....

Post flop

Flop call is also optimal imo as well, if he is as agressive and loose opener as you described then the chances of him hitting the flop harder than you are slim and a total airball is his most likely holding so any raise from you would be met by an insta-pass from him. On to the turn.......... Why would you ever raise here? You picked up nut flush draw to go with TPTK but you started the hand 100BB's deep so if you raise the turn and villian still wants to get involved you are very likely relying on the flush draw with 1 card come to get you out of jail. From what you described about him he is always betting with worse made hands which is still good news for your hand but if you raise you fold out the majority of those hands and keep in the ones that beat you, not a very favourable situation. This deep stacked I thnk you have to call and evaluate the river card...


That would be my first option on how to pay the hand, but involves a flop, turn and potentially river with chips still to bet with and that can prove daunting.....
so this would be my alternative:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well yes I agree. If we are still looking to get all the chips in on the turn you couldn't help but be pleased with this result. But I don't think a rock min-raising looks weak and I don't think he pushes a draw either. So in other words if he doesn't have you crushed will min-raising actually work as a strat?

The key to the hand is that turn bet though. You've either got to say it's cos the guy is ridic strong or ridic weak. Either way you don't want to be raising. I thought he was ridic strong with a set when in fact he had A-A. But even so that change of betting strat needs some serious questioning before you raise. Did Laxie do that? If not that's how she can improve playing this hand. But with her image I just can't imagine him jamming weak really. Having said that Laxie gives us the lowdown on this guy and it's hard not to think this is the hand you've been waiting for. I just sense that Laxie's trap strat made her blind to his wtf turn bet? How did his betting through the streets vary before? If it was all over the place then it's hard not to want to get it in but you do only have one pair.

His turn bet seemed weak, but I knew he wouldn't let go of his hand.  My mini raise really was silly in hindsight.  When he shoved, I was stuck between he having a weak/big draw and made hand.  Didn't give him enough credit and in effect, I really only trapped myself. 

Against this type of player and without knowledge that he actually has a hand this time, what would be your suggestions from pre flop all the way to the river?

Only the turn for me Laxie where its 'bad' play, i'm more than happy with the pre and post calls...

If you have tptk and he keeps firing on a dry board just keep calling. Why not? The amounts he's putting in are ok for a single pair hand imo. If he checks the river bet half the pot. But bet half the pot in future hands if you have nothing.

I'm thinking hero should raise raise pre, despite tight image might mean villain passing. AKs just too strong...

Flat on flop is good. As played, I think hero should flat the turn and bet on river if he checks, and call or raise depending on river bet and instinct at the time...

Difficult to get away from this on the turn. Against this opponent. I'm inclined to call.

This thread has tilted me so damn hard i would type a proper reply but internet connection is tilting me almost as hard, i will do one later in the week.

As i said previously i don't like the min raise at all unless our goal was to get it all in on the turn which against this aggro opp we are still likely to be ahead.However i generally would agree with pab (as he is much better than me hehe) no seriously though (drinkaments ftw) generally when i have tp and a fd i like to mix it up and try and trap by just flatting since we generally have the best hand but are giving the opportunity to our opp to barrel the river then if we miss the nuts we can re-evaluate as we are still likely to be ahead

Good to see pab and moorman posting in the pha board even if it is just ^^^^^^^ lol us mere mortals i'm sure would love to read more from you 2 good post pab

At least my posts can't be as bad as in the other thread that will now obviously be forgotten never to be seen again  ;)

[X] 14+ bottles of becks is a good idea on a monday night

Really do appreciate the input Lads.


This should be fun.   rotflmfao  Bring it on Flushy.  Want to learn and get better, so I can take it. 

still waiting

still waiting

This is yet another perfect example of someone doing something with no clue as to why they are doing it. How can you possibly ever get to a hand on the turn, raise with 'a hand' and not know how to respond to a 3 bet?!? This always amazes me, NEVER RAISE WITH A HAND IN THIS SPOT WITHOUT A 3 BET PLAN!

Right now as to whether we should raise the key here is down to the dynamics of the table and the respective images of the 2 players in question.

"Tighter than Tighty" so you have a tight image and are playing against a lag you flat pre with AK soooted, fair enough you flop TPTK you call fair enough you turn a nut draw he fires again. Now think when he fires the turn what does he put you on? Tight players flats on a K94 board, if i am him i am thinking Kx or QQ-TT i am hardy likely to fire a 2nd barrel into such a dry board, for that reason we must give him credit for some form of hand.

So here we are in a spot where our oppo probably has a hand although its probably worse than ours so its going to be very hard to win a big pot given our image, however if he does have a better hand than us we have a disguised nut draw that will surely get us some action, so we must flat in this spot.

Now lets see what happens if we have a far more balanced range, this is what we should always be striving to have.


So this guy raises i find AK sooooted i decide to flat, i have been pretty active raising a lot of pots playing a lot of flops, i decide to flat AK because i haven't really been 3 betting as of yet. The flop comes K94r and my oppo leads into me for some reason i decide to again flat call, maybe trying to look like i am floating him.

Now the turn comes and i pick up th NFD and he bets 1500 into me, this is a great spot for me to raise to induce a 3 bet or a call down from a much wider range of hands, so i go ahead and raise probably more than min say 4k, now before i have done this i already know that if he 3 bets i am calling as my range is far wider than nut 1 pair or 2pr/sets so he can 3 bet me far more liberally he can even 3 bet to induce a 4 bet with 1 pair hands. He can also show up here a lot with QT QJ JT clubs hands that will probably get through against my raise but not a tight woman's turn raise.

This is why its ridic to try and examine this hand without knowing the table dynamics, and why its such a huge error to raise and fold when you have great showdown value.

So will everyone please stop raising/re-raising then gettng confused when its put back up them!