blonde poker forum

ok 10 handed table. 20 players left from an initial 70+ tournament. buyin 250+25 pounds. last hand of day 1.

blinds 800-1600-100
average stack is 70k
9 prizes

button on seat 1
your on the bb (seat3)with 46k and have been dealt  Kh Kd.

action....

seat 4 ,utg, raises to 5k from a starting stack of 45k

seats 5,6,7,8 fold

seat 9 shoves allin for a total of 15k

seat 10, 1, 2 (sb) all fold

no information on any players

action on you.......

Erm...shove?

just deleted my reply to homer ill wait till there a few responces

autocall, 1/3 of your stack witha premium, if he has AA the fair doos but WTF would you be calling him with here

Is there any other option? (Rhetorical).

Even I get it all-in here, & I don't give a toss if I win or lose, because I did the right thing.

why would we want to shove here, surely we make utg fold loads of hands and go back to days 2 with under ave when we could win a monster pot

Cambo what answer are you looking for ?

I quite like flatting to get utg into the pot then trying to extract the rest postflop. A shove is simply going to isolate the shortie and utg is going to need a monster to get it in. Whereas if we flat utg will call us with a pretty wide range relative to his opening range and we can stack quite a few inferior hands postflop.

This of course is read dependent and a slightly riskier line but imo is more +EV than iso shoving.

my mate said yes shove, i say no i want to play for utg stack , we dont get kk very often and by shoving here imo we are making utg fold too many hands i want him in the pot with, so i posted here to get thoughts, seems a bit scared to shove here

agree with longy, just hope ace doesn't hit or guy doesn't flop a set then your laughing. U may even get the original guy to shove something like AK or qq if u flat.

Cold calling a 3-bet vs a UTG raise doesn't scream monster strength?

surely is better than shoving and making him fold 1010 99 jj aq etc?

I think your thought process is wrong here, you are getting married to the hand by committing 1/3 of your stack to it really, the extra 20ish k is significant to your stack, this is the last hand of day 1, not the last hand to gather chips, take the pot the way it is, its big enough and limit your liablity/ risk.

Shove shove shove

thats not playing scared thats just not the way you wanted to play the hand.

each to their own thats what makes poker a great game

You flat call, and the flop comes down with an over-card to 99, TT, JJ - what do you do then?  Shove the rest in?  You shove it in pre-flop, and they are most likely going to call.  They are less likely to call a shove on the flop with overcards on the board.

lol why are they most likely to call? its more than likely they fold if u shove in

They have put an extra 10k in though for starters. Which will be in the main pot with the shortie which you will be a fave to win.

In this buyin you are going to find a lot of live nits folding 99-jj (probably face up cos its cool you know) to a 4 bet iso shove. We probs do stack them on a raggy flop post flop though.

LMAO

they are more likely to call you with 99 preflop than they are after the flop when they miss

so youare risking getting stacked yourself by letting them in cheap to hit

if they miss they get away if they hit you get stacked

so get them in pre then whey will either get away from it or get them in when they are in a bad postion

When the pot gets to 50% or more of your stack there is really no need to get fancy. This flat-calling trap play does work, but it's not ideal here. Even with the fact that pot-size vs stack ratio makes this an auto-push for me there's other things that support it. Mainly the reasons given by Homer, Kin & Ironside. But also it's the last hand of the day and you're getting short, so you don't really need a monster to shove/isolate the all-in here. Or at least you don't in the eyes of your oppo...who could easily find a call with A-Q. What's A-Q going to do post-flop on a 9 high board? Cos he will always check it down in the all-in situation until he spikes his A...and will always fold if you bet because he knows you're never bluffing. Action is much more likely pre flop when the guy doesn't know how big your hand is rather than post flop when he certainly does.

whats so funny ironfish? at a min i want that extra 10k in the pot as longy says and atleast have the chance of them stacking off on a raggy flop , to shove in here is losing the chance of a lot of value imo, its highly unlikely ull get 99 1010 etc in a live nit fest calling all in with 2 shoves in front of them

as a matter of interest - if we change heros hand to AA - do the shovers still shove?

Pretty much ended the thread here.

lol at this

thanks for ur imput

this is boba fetts hand from last night, he did shove , utg folded aq -shorty had 33 , board came ak8 and he goes into day with 63k when ave is 70k insteak of having 100k+

cant be results orientated

 shoving here is such a better play in the long run

1. flat calling looks just as strong as shoving.
2. but shoving gets money in  vs ak on rag boards and QQ/JJ on Ace high boards.

Flushy and Mantis agreeing?

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/3050354749_8d2ce85f29_o.gif)

Yes


Did the turn come J and river 10?


I agreed with Homer, Kin and Iron.

Not usually something to be proud of.

proud? :)

i dunno, i like flatting if my image is retarded to get utg to do something dumb w AQ+/1010+. NFH is right of course, our flat does smack of a monster but i cant see utg flatting this 3b if he's competent, hes folding or shoving. Yeah i like embracing the variance and going for a doubleup+

With KK in this spot TBH with the stage we are at,the arguments for calling or shoving both have merit.

If utg has ANY common what so ever he would see the smooth call as a danger sign and fold most hands imo if it is truly a big buy in scenario,if he did call after we flatted the all in villian we could virtually eliminate him having AA the only hand at this time we are worried about him having,and we could happily ship in our stack on a non ace flop and gain an extra 10000 chips for a daft call.

Is this a line worth risking?

lol, everyone should just change whatever decent poker strategy they have to suit the best outcome for you and your mates after all 5 cards have come out then?

thats one of the very few flops he will get the full amount by not reraising pre even then the guy could fold TPTK when you lead out into a dry sidepot

i doubt i lead out tbh.

The UTG opener has got like half the average stack himself and it's the last hand of the night and he's just opened for more than 10% of his stack. The guy doesn't need to be an idiot to call, he just needs to say feck it let's try and spin up a stack for day 2, and people do that in every live tournament. Easy to do after 10 hours of poker when the pot is massive. Easier than stacking when you miss anyway.

Makes more sense on this thread.

:D

Not shoving here is a cardinal sin IMO.  If Paul flats the raise and the flop comes A high and he goes tumbling out then all we'd here is how shit his life is.

I had played with the UTG raiser a lot in smaller buy in events in the local casino so have some info on him.  He is a nit, always takes the cautious path and generally seems quite intelligent.  I also havent seen him ever playing a bigger buy in event than the standard weekly tourneys so the assumption is he is playing bigger than normal.

The reason i reshoved is, Im pretty sure that if I flat the 15k shove and have 25-30k behind, he is smart enough to know that if he calls the 10k he is committing himself to call the other 30k I have behind.  His UTG range is extremely tight so Im pretty sure that he is never overcalling the 10k more or reshoving on me without a hand he would call my reshove for.

Also, someone else mentioned it, flat calling here makes it obvious I have a monster, I think reshoving widens my range slightly.  The last level of the day i dropped from 70k to 45k by raising 3 or 4 hands only to get shoved on by AK/AA/KK and JJ so I looked (and probably was) tilted.

If I do flat call and the flop comes ace high then Im hating life, Ive put in a 3rd of my stack and need to check/fold.  Turns out Id have got the dream flop as UTG later told me he had AQ and was glad he passed but whatever, I had a below average stack but I was still fairly deep relative to the blinds.