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Decent read IMO.

The Truth About Those Hamas Rockets

By Dennis Rahkonen

January 01, 2009 "Online Journal" -- Five years ago, the Bush administration lied about weapons of mass destruction to dupe us into supporting an illegal, immoral invasion of Iraq.

A few days ago, Israel trotted out only an infinitesimally more credible excuse -- the Hamas rockets case -- as justification for its own murderous shock and awe in Gaza, a long-planned campaign perniciously aimed at ousting a “regime” that came to power via popular, democratic vote.

Yes, such rockets exist, but they’re little more than slingshots against Israel’s incredible military might, and they’re used out of desperation by Palestinians who’ve never been accorded the democratic space within which to gain redress of their eminently just grievances.

Israeli apologists have presented absurd propaganda about those devices.

We’ve been asked, for instance, what would we do if rockets were being launched on our homes in New York or Texas, from Canada or Mexico?

The proper answer is that, if those two nations had been unlawfully occupied or embargoed by the United States for 60 years of relentless oppression and repression, and if all attempts at peaceful change had been forcefully prevented or scuttled by the U.S., then such attacks would be an understandable, indeed a justifiable attempt at gaining intolerably deferred liberty.

Our appropriate response wouldn’t be to bomb the hell out of the nearest Canadian or Mexican city, but to collectively look into mirrors and earnestly ask ourselves, “What have we done wrong to incur their wrath?”

And then act to correct the situation.

Conscientious Israelis acknowledge that the Hamas rockets rationale is fraudulent. For instance, Jerusalem Post writer Larry Derfner has noted, “We don’t want to see how people in Gaza are living, we block it out of our minds -- which, I suppose, is natural for a society at war, but which also keeps that war going longer than it might if we would recognize that Gaza is getting so much the worst of it.

“The [Palestinian] Kassam [rockets] have terrorized the 25,000 people in Sderot and its environs, but have caused very, very few deaths or serious wounds. By contrast, Israel has terrorized 1.5 million Gazans, locked them inside their awfully narrow borders, throttled their economy, and killed and seriously wounded thousands of them . . .

“This is crazy. Israel is the superpower of the Middle East, but because we still think we’re the Jews of Europe in the 1930s, or the Israelites under Pharaoh, we spend a lot more time fighting our enemies than we might if we looked at the whole picture, not just our half of it . . .”

As Gazan hospitals and morgues fill beyond capacity because of an ongoing air assault that cruelly began at precisely the hour when countless children were heading home from school, we’re expected to believe that small craters mostly in empty Israeli fields constitute this terrible episode’s chief sin.

Bugs bothered by sporadically impacting, glorified fireworks cobbled together in backyard garages are ludicrously supposed to be the primary problem, not human limbs and lives shattered by the most destructive weapons that military science can produce!

At any point during the past six decades, Israel could have had peace, simply by assenting to the great moral imperative of our time, namely the Palestinians’ right to their own, unitary, sovereign homeland.

Something which Israel continues to resist tooth and nail.

Two years ago, in Southern Lebanon, Israel engaged in similar bombings in civilian areas. Then, too, it maintained that only “terrorist” targets were being hit. As impartial observers finally ascertained the truth, clear evidence of enormous civilian carnage surfaced.

The Israeli leadership lied then, and it’s lying now.

There’s a veritable holocaust occurring in densely packed Gaza. Think Guernica, or the Warsaw Ghetto, with all the searing irony that comparison involves.

Apart from being an ethical travesty offending all decent hearts, it’s an unpardonable outrage to especially Arab/Islamic peoples around the world.

Witness the angry demonstrations in cities across the planet.

It takes no extraordinary analytical prowess to appreciate that, when the White House ridiculously blames what’s currently happening on “thugs” in Gaza, and when moderate Arab states adopt an accommodationist position pleasing the U.S. and Israel, a profound Arab/Islamic radicalization billows and swells.

New Osama bin Ladens are being born as innocents in Gaza are getting ripped to death by American-made Hellfire missiles, dispatched toward fleshly targets by Israeli pilots.

In fact, the almost certain, counterproductive outcome of Israel’s action makes us necessarily suspect that secret motives mistakenly judged by Tel Aviv to be worth the risk are actually at play.

Three possibilities spring immediately to mind:

1) Obscenely using de facto genocide to give the present Israeli government a “tough” image before upcoming national elections.

2) Roping Barack Obama into a harder pro-Israeli stance than Tel Aviv fears he’d otherwise take.

3) Creating a manipulated, intensely propagandized situation that would enable a desired Israeli attack on Iran.

Whatever the most deeply hidden reality, Israel’s gargantuan crime must be universally condemned in the strongest possible terms . . . and halted at once!
Dennis Rahkonen of Superior, Wisconsin, has been writing progressive commentary with a Heartland perspective for various outlets since the 60's


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21596.htm

Interesting use of the word truth

one mans truth is another mans lie and fundamentalism and the "I am right and you are wrong attitude" is what brings us to conflict...........needless to say I do not agree with the article but then I am entitled to my opinion

Forgive me if I am wrong  as i am not great on military war and such topics

  isn't the situation akin to Ireland with the IRA? Now they were shooting and bombing at will but  the aggression shown to them wasn't from airplanes and bombs but by intelligence and ground forces,also ETA in Spain,

 the death toll speaks volumes i think last night it stood around 900+ Palestinian deaths and 14 Israeli deaths This just doesn't seem right to me.yes you have to remove the terrorist but surely the way it is being done isn't right!

The living conditions in Gaza are an aberration and a violation of human rights, but at the same time the psychotic element of Hamas is bringing the current Israeli bombardment upon itself and the innocent people of Gaza. The purpose of the embargo on Gaza has always been to prevent rockets and other arms getting through to Gaza, but Hamas continues to arm itself via hidden tunnels to Egypt. These tunnels have very deliberately been concealed in the homes of civilians - like I said, the militant branch of Hamas has a real collective psychotic streak, which admittedly has not been improved any by essentially keeping the people of Gaza hostage, but the truth is that the people who continue to fire rockets at Israeli towns even in the face of massive military force do not give a shit about their own people - their strategy of putting innocent women and children in the line of fire has been extensively documented and roundly condemned.

Hamas has always rocketed Israel from Gaza, but the rockets used to be largely symbolic, home-made affairs not really capable of doing much damage. The rockets they are firing now are professional, Iranian-made jobbies that are potentially capable of hitting Israeli nuclear facilities, and that has to be prevented.

In Israel, the feeling, even among liberals, is generally that going into Gaza now is regrettably necessary. It's not an attempt at genocide of the Palestinian people - if Israel really wanted to obliterate the Palestinian people, their military might is such that they could easily do so in about 5 minutes. They intend to do no such thing. I think Israel recognises that there will at some point be a Palestinian state, and it will most likely run along more or less the 1967 borders, but before that can happen the military capabilities of Hamas, as well as their attitude that Israel has no right to exist and that mindlessly bombing Israeli civilians is an ok thing to do, have to be suppressed. Once the tunnels to Egypt are destroyed and the security of Israel is assured, the attacks on Gaza will cease and talks can begin again. The attitude of Hamas has to change before anything that will improve the lot of the people of Gaza can happen. It is possible - Fatah and the PLO both used to have an ideological opposition to the state of Israel, but have since recognised the right of Israel to exist and it has become possible for something constructive to be done. If Hamas are permitted to continue firing rockets at Israel, then there cannot be end to the conflict.

Wow, that was a rant. My (Israeli) mum would be proud.

Israel is a rogue state which ignores United Nations resolutions, has illegal weapons of mass destruction, repeatedly breeches the Geneva conventions and routinely commits war crimes. Perhaps the coalition should invade and introduce some democracy.

Always a problem when there isn't the good guys and the bad guys.

Makes it so much trickier when it's the bad guys and the other bad guys.

Israel essentially has absolute control over the US power of veto at the UN, on all middle eastern matters it is essentially their veto to use as they please. It means they have carte blanche to do whatever they like and the international community is powerless. If Obama's government is serious about changing America and regaining the world's respect on foreign policy this problem needs to be addressed.

Israel is a unique case - a Jewish state surrounded by hostile Islamic states which largely have a massive ideological opposition to the very concept of its existence. I think in many cases Israel's paranoia is justified, although its heavy-handed, American-backed and American-style tactics have at times been extremely questionable. In its current state, Hamas is essentially a terrorist organisation which openly states that its ultimate aim is the eradication of Israel and the Jewish people, and I'm not sure how else one might go about dealing with that threat.

I do not believe that Israel wants or intends to kill Palestinian civilians, but Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth, and civilian deaths, though always ugly and regrettable, are absolutely inevitable when Hamas deliberately conceal their military installations in regular people's houses. Sitting back and just taking the bombardments on southern Israeli towns from Gaza, while the rockets that they import get bigger and stronger, is just not an option for Israel because the logical conclusion of that strategy is that Hamas eventually get their hands on something capable of taking Israel out entirely. Israel is hoping that the people of Gaza will turn against the radical terrorist arm of Hamas that currently rules, and that the moderates in the party will gain more control and talks can resume. While you've got a bunch of crazy guys who like the idea of martyrdom in charge, there's not much that can be done in terms of diplomacy.

If your enemy does the dirty by storing its weapons in areas populated by women and children, is it ok to carry out airstrikes on the stockpiles even if it means killing dozens of women and children in the process? If they captured your wife and kids and stuck them in there would it make the decision any easier?

Apposite sig there WYSINWYG.

That's what I'm saying, they deliberately use their own women and children as shields. Why do they still do this, when it has clearly not stopped Israel from attempting to take out their military capabilities at any point in the last 40 years or so of conflict? The only conclusion I can come to from this behaviour is that they care more about maintaining the influx of arms to Gaza than about the security of their own people. It's death or glory for the Palestinian militants, and they are not currently interested in any resolution to the conflict that allows the state of Israel to continue existing. They seem to me to be more interested in destroying the state of Israel than engaging in talks which would lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state. Hamas know that they are massively outgunned, but the collective psychosis of the militant Hamas leadership drives them to do foolish things like continue to bomb Israeli towns, even when Israeli tanks are moving in. Yes, the Israeli army has killed many, many more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has killed Israelis and every civilian death is a horrible tragedy for someone, but at least Israel has the decency to call ahead when they intend to bomb Gaza - a courtesy that is not extended to the Israeli people when Hamas rocket their towns, as the intention of Hamas is not to take out Israel's military capabilities, but to cause as many pointless Jewish civilian deaths as their comparatively feeble arms will allow. It is very possible that by invading Gaza this time around Israel is storing up a whole load of trouble for the future, but I just can't see any end to the conflict that doesn't involve first taking out the military capabilities of Hamas and the Hamas leaders that promote the black-and-white, Israel-has-no-right-to-exist attitude among the Palestinian people.

Good article written by a former Israeli army person

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine)

EDIT: link works now

I think I best keep quiet after reading this....

Is that correct?  I think we need to define 'Hamas' as it can mean different things to different people.  From wikipedia (so it must be true):


As for the "eradication of Israel and the Jewish people" - I think that is incorrect.  They are opposed to the state of Israel, but I didn't think there was anything against Jews in their 'goals'.  I stand to be corrected of course.

Hamas is the same group that think that the holocaust did not happen and glory in death rather than life. And what does "Jews in their goals" mean? Enough for me I am afraid. I shall not return to this thread.

Probably makes more sense if you quote the whole sentence instead of just the last four words (which don't even make sense on their own).

Hamas fires rockets into Israel its terrorism. Israel nukes Palestine towns its Anti-Terrorism, obv.

Hamas is the elected government in Gaza, and for sure there are moderates within Hamas, but the current leadership within Hamas is entirely aware of and fully supports the firing of rockets into Israel. Israel cannot accept this, and wishes to disable the capabilities of Hamas to do so before they can return to talks concerning the withdrawal of Israeli troops from the occupied territories and the establishment of a Palestinian state. As far as I'm aware, asking nicely didn't work. ;) Yes, it's been heavy-handed, yes, the Israeli government has done some extremely ethically questionable things. I don't approve of the militant standpoint that the Israeli government has increasingly been taken, but Israel has accepted that there will ultimately have to be a separate Palestinian state, and requiring that the Palestinians first accept also the right of the Israeli state to exist is reasonable. Diplomacy has not convinced Hamas to accept this, because there are more militants than moderates in Hamas at this time, and they are much, much louder. I am sort of horrified that I find myself, anti-war and liberal that I am, accepting the invasion of Gaza as a necessary evil, but I think in the long run taking out the crazy element in Hamas is the most likely way to ultimately achieve peace in the region.



Well, ultimately that's what it amounts to. Israel's blockade of Gaza and the West Bank has really backfired for it, in that generations of Palestinians have now grown up in total ignorance of the circumstances surrounding the founding of the state of Israel. I saw some interesting interviews with schoolchildren in the West Bank who were asked what they knew about Jews - they all seemed to genuinely believe that Jews were evil and wanted to destroy Islam. That's what you get when you lock people up in their tiny strip of land without any kind of infrastructure and let them get on with it, I guess. But because they have been isolated for generations now, very few Palestinians are even aware of the Holocaust or the pogroms, or what led the world to finally agree to institute a national home for the Jewish people. Remember, the state of Israel was established by the United Nations in the aftermath of the Second World War, and the plan was always to share the land with the Palestinians, setting up two separate states divided by Jerusalem, which would be placed under UN control. Every Arab country voted against this plan. The borders have thus been disputed from day one - the Arabs rejected all plans for partitioning Palestine, and resolved to make war on Israel from the moment the state was founded, and the Jews were determined to protect their UN-approved homeland and didn't see why, when they were under attack, they should abide by borders that the people waging war against them never accepted anyway. To be sure, the ethics of imposing the establishment of a Jewish state on a region where everyone with any power voted against the move are questionable - but, like I said, the UN voted it in. 33 to 13, I believe. In retrospect, it would perhaps have been a better idea to put the Jewish state elsewhere - British Guyana was proposed at one point, and Hitler was quite keen on dumping all the Jews in Madagascar before he came up with that other idea - but there was an established Jewish community in Israel since, well, biblical times, and with WWII just over, the standpoint of the Zionist movement seemed incredibly reasonable.

The current leadership of the political wing of Hamas is entirely separate to that of the military leadership.

There are moderates in Hamas, just as there are in Israel - it's just at the moment that it's the radicals who own the guns on both sides.


And interviews with some Israeli schoolchildren show that they believe pretty much the same thing about the Palestinians.

The only thing that the current Israeli action will guarantee is that the military radical wing of Hamas will gain more recruits than the moderate political wing.

The military capability of a terrorist organisation isn't what guarantees it's survival, its ability to recruit new members does.

i dont see any point to this, I think we have already been over most of this and nobody is likely to get the other to change their minds,

the whole situation saddens me. I dont know who's right or who's wrong, and doubt if one side can really take the moral high ground in such a violent struggle.

Indeed sir

Welcome back to the thread xx  ;)

Oh jeez, if ever there was a title to cause trouble...

1) Hamas will never ever win against the military might of Israel but won't ever stop firing rockets because...

2) That would be a sign of them admitting defeat and if they did then...

3) The symbolism of them stopping would mean they'd lose some of their support and probably lose whatever laughable amount of political power that the Palestinians are allowed to wield.

Tell me about it. It's incredibly sad for everyone - personally sad for me because my family in Israel (who incidentally settled there in the 19th century, well before the state of Israel was even a pipe dream) keep having to flee to the north or abroad every time Hamas or Hezbollah fire rockets at their homes, and incredibly, unbelievably sad for the Palestinians who really have nowhere to flee to. I am certainly not saying that Israel has any moral high ground here - it's an ugly situation all round - but I am saying that given the circumstances and the background to this conflict, going back really for centuries, the Israeli government's actions are sort of understandable.

well one point is that it educates people. dana has explained a couple of things that I didn't understand from the Israel POV.

quite a good thread on 2p2 if like me you don't know much about the history.

LOLed at this


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/41/politics/can-someone-explain-israeli-palestine-conflict-me-380186/

in my experience, most of the top NL players support Israel, so I'm thinking, long term, that if palestine win, it could increase my pokertracker winrate by 0.75~~1 bb/100, so I'm rooting for palestine. GL sirs

I think that with the number of dead children approaching 300 Israel and the moral high ground will remain strangers for some time. They could of course be militant or even terrorist children.

I always wondered why games were softer on Friday nights...

Jon again is the voice of reason on this topic imo.

I like this forum so ill stay quiet.

I am not going to get involved in any debate because it would no doubt descend to a heated arguement. 
I thought the original article was a decent read and that is as much as I have to say other than Free Palestine.

Peace on earth will never happen-the whole world is Fucked!

The fact that so many on here feel that they can't discuss and debate the situation is probably an indicator as to why the people in Palestine and Israel are struggling to resolve the situation.

I don't understand why people can't debate without feeling that they'll 'fall-out' with others.  As long as the debate and discussion stays on the topic, and doesn't descend into personal attacks, no one should get upset with others' opinions - should they?  :dontask:

I think its a very emotive subject and I think its one of those subjects were your in one camp or the other.  The anger and hatred I feel towards Israel and her allies almost makes my blood boil. 

But they do and it does,everyone is entitled to their opinion but others will always take offence,we live in a world where we all have different views regarding all topics,but some will always see it as personal if your view doesnt match theirs...

Long Live Palestine
Long Live Gaza!!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ucuroPg2JUo

Original version: http://www.imeem.com/chapsno1/music/912OvEDf/lowkey_long_live_palestine/

But you cant help yourself can you.

allright Gary we know which side of the fence you are standing, not everyone wants to be forcefed this anti Israel propaganda

I just thought it was a decent tune.

No forcefeeding mate, just sharing what i thought was a decent artistic piece on the situation. 

The assertion that you're either in one camp or the other is just ridiculous, almost by definition all reasonable people take a balanced view of any situation. It is impossible to apply intelligent thought to any argument or discussion unless you are able to understand the subject from all perspectives.

Most people see a tragic situation and hope that somehow a peaceful resolution can be found, their instinct is rarely to take sides. 

+100% my feelings on the situation-having such an extreme view on situations is the problem IMO- neither side cover themselves in glory IMO

Though I do more sway towards the palestine argument I do see both sides of the coin(or wall as it were)

YouTube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb3IMTJjzfo

That's all.

 :D

Without doubt the most stupid act of the 20th century was the creation of the state of Israel, read the history, look at the terrorism that led to it, think about taking land and giving it to a religious group - in the middle of an opposing religious group - back it up with every tool of modern warfare whilst ensuring that it's opponents have only dated weapons and support it no matter what attrocities it commits and tell me that trouble was never going to happen!

  :goodpost:

I think the important question is, before Britain created Israel how persecuted were your family in Palestine?

Well, on my grandma's side her family fled the pogroms against the Jews in the late 19th century, and were in Palestine during the 1920 Palestine riots against the Jews. Pleasingly, they were not among those killed. On my grandpa's side, he fled to Palestine from Germany during the 1930s because of the rise of the Nazi party. I'm sorry, I'm not sure what point you're making. ???

Because since Israel was created over half of the agreed Palestinian territory has been seized by Israel. I was wondering how the settlers were treated when the Jewish were a minority. I wasn't having a pop, I appreciate your well thought out replys.

I just find that I feel a deep distaste for the victims of the ghettoes, the holocaust, forcing the people of Palestine into what are effectively ghettoes & atacking them pretty indiscriminately. The slogan NEVER AGAIN should mean for anyone IMHO.

Bandit made a good point a bit too forcedly as well.

How can the West be taken seriously when Tony Blair is our envoy to the Middle East he was PM during the whole Weapons of Mass Destruction disgrace? It's like having Margaret Thatcher our envoy to South America.

Well the truth is the rockets aint doing much harm eh? what 13 dead, 10 of which soliders I doubt died to those rockets they used to justify the genocide.

(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45376000/gif/_45376160_gaza_deaths466x316.gif)