The Truth About Hamas Rockets . . .

[AndrewT]

Probably makes more sense if you quote the whole sentence instead of just the last four words (which don't even make sense on their own).

[Acidmouse]

Hamas fires rockets into Israel its terrorism. Israel nukes Palestine towns its Anti-Terrorism, obv.

[danafish]

In its current state, Hamas is essentially a terrorist organisation which openly states that its ultimate aim is the eradication of Israel and the Jewish people

Is that correct?  I think we need to define 'Hamas' as it can mean different things to different people.  From wikipedia (so it must be true):

Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan, and the United States, and is banned in Jordan.
Australia and the United Kingdom list only the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.

Hamas is the elected government in Gaza, and for sure there are moderates within Hamas, but the current leadership within Hamas is entirely aware of and fully supports the firing of rockets into Israel. Israel cannot accept this, and wishes to disable the capabilities of Hamas to do so before they can return to talks concerning the withdrawal of Israeli troops from the occupied territories and the establishment of a Palestinian state. As far as I'm aware, asking nicely didn't work. Yes, it's been heavy-handed, yes, the Israeli government has done some extremely ethically questionable things. I don't approve of the militant standpoint that the Israeli government has increasingly been taken, but Israel has accepted that there will ultimately have to be a separate Palestinian state, and requiring that the Palestinians first accept also the right of the Israeli state to exist is reasonable. Diplomacy has not convinced Hamas to accept this, because there are more militants than moderates in Hamas at this time, and they are much, much louder. I am sort of horrified that I find myself, anti-war and liberal that I am, accepting the invasion of Gaza as a necessary evil, but I think in the long run taking out the crazy element in Hamas is the most likely way to ultimately achieve peace in the region.

As for the "eradication of Israel and the Jewish people" - I think that is incorrect.  They are opposed to the state of Israel, but I didn't think there was anything against Jews in their 'goals'.  I stand to be corrected of course.

Well, ultimately that's what it amounts to. Israel's blockade of Gaza and the West Bank has really backfired for it, in that generations of Palestinians have now grown up in total ignorance of the circumstances surrounding the founding of the state of Israel. I saw some interesting interviews with schoolchildren in the West Bank who were asked what they knew about Jews - they all seemed to genuinely believe that Jews were evil and wanted to destroy Islam. That's what you get when you lock people up in their tiny strip of land without any kind of infrastructure and let them get on with it, I guess. But because they have been isolated for generations now, very few Palestinians are even aware of the Holocaust or the pogroms, or what led the world to finally agree to institute a national home for the Jewish people. Remember, the state of Israel was established by the United Nations in the aftermath of the Second World War, and the plan was always to share the land with the Palestinians, setting up two separate states divided by Jerusalem, which would be placed under UN control. Every Arab country voted against this plan. The borders have thus been disputed from day one - the Arabs rejected all plans for partitioning Palestine, and resolved to make war on Israel from the moment the state was founded, and the Jews were determined to protect their UN-approved homeland and didn't see why, when they were under attack, they should abide by borders that the people waging war against them never accepted anyway. To be sure, the ethics of imposing the establishment of a Jewish state on a region where everyone with any power voted against the move are questionable - but, like I said, the UN voted it in. 33 to 13, I believe. In retrospect, it would perhaps have been a better idea to put the Jewish state elsewhere - British Guyana was proposed at one point, and Hitler was quite keen on dumping all the Jews in Madagascar before he came up with that other idea - but there was an established Jewish community in Israel since, well, biblical times, and with WWII just over, the standpoint of the Zionist movement seemed incredibly reasonable.

[Jon MW]

In its current state, Hamas is essentially a terrorist organisation which openly states that its ultimate aim is the eradication of Israel and the Jewish people

Is that correct?  I think we need to define 'Hamas' as it can mean different things to different people.  From wikipedia (so it must be true):

Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan, and the United States, and is banned in Jordan.
Australia and the United Kingdom list only the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.

Hamas is the elected government in Gaza, and for sure there are moderates within Hamas, but the current leadership within Hamas is entirely aware of and fully supports the firing of rockets into Israel. ...

The current leadership of the political wing of Hamas is entirely separate to that of the military leadership.

There are moderates in Hamas, just as there are in Israel - it's just at the moment that it's the radicals who own the guns on both sides.

... I saw some interesting interviews with schoolchildren in the West Bank who were asked what they knew about Jews - they all seemed to genuinely believe that Jews were evil and wanted to destroy Islam. ...

And interviews with some Israeli schoolchildren show that they believe pretty much the same thing about the Palestinians.

The only thing that the current Israeli action will guarantee is that the military radical wing of Hamas will gain more recruits than the moderate political wing.

The military capability of a terrorist organisation isn't what guarantees it's survival, its ability to recruit new members does.

[lazaroonie]

i dont see any point to this, I think we have already been over most of this and nobody is likely to get the other to change their minds,

the whole situation saddens me. I dont know who's right or who's wrong, and doubt if one side can really take the moral high ground in such a violent struggle.

[Snatiramas]

i dont see any point to this, I think we have already been over most of this and nobody is likely to get the other to change their minds,

the whole situation saddens me. I dont know who's right or who's wrong, and doubt if one side can really take the moral high ground in such a violent struggle.

Indeed sir

[Colchester Kev]

i dont see any point to this, I think we have already been over most of this and nobody is likely to get the other to change their minds,

the whole situation saddens me. I dont know who's right or who's wrong, and doubt if one side can really take the moral high ground in such a violent struggle.

Indeed sir

Welcome back to the thread xx 

[NoflopsHomer]

Oh jeez, if ever there was a title to cause trouble...

1) Hamas will never ever win against the military might of Israel but won't ever stop firing rockets because...

2) That would be a sign of them admitting defeat and if they did then...

3) The symbolism of them stopping would mean they'd lose some of their support and probably lose whatever laughable amount of political power that the Palestinians are allowed to wield.

[danafish]

the whole situation saddens me. I dont know who's right or who's wrong, and doubt if one side can really take the moral high ground in such a violent struggle.

Tell me about it. It's incredibly sad for everyone - personally sad for me because my family in Israel (who incidentally settled there in the 19th century, well before the state of Israel was even a pipe dream) keep having to flee to the north or abroad every time Hamas or Hezbollah fire rockets at their homes, and incredibly, unbelievably sad for the Palestinians who really have nowhere to flee to. I am certainly not saying that Israel has any moral high ground here - it's an ugly situation all round - but I am saying that given the circumstances and the background to this conflict, going back really for centuries, the Israeli government's actions are sort of understandable.

[byronkincaid]

i dont see any point to this, I think we have already been over most of this and nobody is likely to get the other to change their minds,

the whole situation saddens me. I dont know who's right or who's wrong, and doubt if one side can really take the moral high ground in such a violent struggle.

well one point is that it educates people. dana has explained a couple of things that I didn't understand from the Israel POV.

quite a good thread on 2p2 if like me you don't know much about the history.

LOLed at this

It's the same way Scottish people tend to have red hair

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/41/politics/can-someone-explain-israeli-palestine-conflict-me-380186/

[totalise]

in my experience, most of the top NL players support Israel, so I'm thinking, long term, that if palestine win, it could increase my pokertracker winrate by 0.75~~1 bb/100, so I'm rooting for palestine. GL sirs

[CelticGeezeer]

i dont see any point to this, I think we have already been over most of this and nobody is likely to get the other to change their minds,

the whole situation saddens me. I dont know who's right or who's wrong, and doubt if one side can really take the moral high ground in such a violent struggle.

I think that with the number of dead children approaching 300 Israel and the moral high ground will remain strangers for some time. They could of course be militant or even terrorist children.

[AndrewT]

in my experience, most of the top NL players support Israel, so I'm thinking, long term, that if palestine win, it could increase my pokertracker winrate by 0.75~~1 bb/100, so I'm rooting for palestine. GL sirs

I always wondered why games were softer on Friday nights...

[kinboshi]

In its current state, Hamas is essentially a terrorist organisation which openly states that its ultimate aim is the eradication of Israel and the Jewish people

Is that correct?  I think we need to define 'Hamas' as it can mean different things to different people.  From wikipedia (so it must be true):

Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan, and the United States, and is banned in Jordan.
Australia and the United Kingdom list only the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization.

Hamas is the elected government in Gaza, and for sure there are moderates within Hamas, but the current leadership within Hamas is entirely aware of and fully supports the firing of rockets into Israel. ...

The current leadership of the political wing of Hamas is entirely separate to that of the military leadership.

There are moderates in Hamas, just as there are in Israel - it's just at the moment that it's the radicals who own the guns on both sides.

... I saw some interesting interviews with schoolchildren in the West Bank who were asked what they knew about Jews - they all seemed to genuinely believe that Jews were evil and wanted to destroy Islam. ...

And interviews with some Israeli schoolchildren show that they believe pretty much the same thing about the Palestinians.

The only thing that the current Israeli action will guarantee is that the military radical wing of Hamas will gain more recruits than the moderate political wing.

The military capability of a terrorist organisation isn't what guarantees it's survival, its ability to recruit new members does.

Jon again is the voice of reason on this topic imo.

[maldini32]

the whole situation saddens me. I dont know who's right or who's wrong, and doubt if one side can really take the moral high ground in such a violent struggle.

Tell me about it. It's incredibly sad for everyone - personally sad for me because my family in Israel (who incidentally settled there in the 19th century, well before the state of Israel was even a pipe dream) keep having to flee to the north or abroad every time Hamas or Hezbollah fire rockets at their homes, and incredibly, unbelievably sad for the Palestinians who really have nowhere to flee to. I am certainly not saying that Israel has any moral high ground here - it's an ugly situation all round - but I am saying that given the circumstances and the background to this conflict, going back really for centuries, the Israeli government's actions are sort of understandable.

I like this forum so ill stay quiet.