blonde poker forum

OK, THIS IS MY FIRST 'HAND FOR ANALSIS' SO BARE WITH ME OK GUYS.

OK, THE 300 D/C AT JANUARYS GUKPT IN BRIGHTON. I HAVE HAD SOME CARDS AND GOOD SPOTS AND IM A TOP 5 CHIP COUNT WITH LIKE 75K @ 600/1200.
MY SUPER SOFT TABLE (HAD ONE GOOD PLAYER WHOM I BELIEVE IS HORNERIS ON HERE) WAS JUST BROKEN AND I MOVED TO NEW TABLE.
BEFORE I HAD EVEN TAKEN MY CHAIR THE DEALER HAD TAKEN AN ANTE FROM MY CHIP RACK AND DEALT ME IN.
I TAKE MY SEAT AND LOOK DOWN AT  Qd Qc (MBN)..... FOLDS TO ME AND I OPEN FOR 3100. AS SOON AS MY CHIPS GO IN, THE BUTTON ANNOUNCES RAISE. HE MAKES IT 6200!!!!!!!!!!
FOLD BACK TO ME... WHAT IS MY PLAY HERE?
REMEMBER I HAVE JUST GOT TO TABLE, THE GUY WHO IS 3 BETTING ME IS ONE OF ONLY A FEW LEFT IN TOURNEY WHO HAVE ME COVERED (30 LEFT).  OBV NO READ.. APART FROM HE HAS ME COVERED AND IS ABOUT 40 YEARS OLD! I HAVE AN IMAGE TO MOST AS LOOSE, EVEN CRAZY YOUNG AGGRO KID, BUT HAVE NEVER PLAYED A HAND OF POKER WITH VILLAIN BEFORE?
SOME OPINIONS ON THE OPTIMAL PLAY IN LIVE POKER IN THIS SITUATION BASED ON ALL INFO AVAILABLE WOULD BE APPRECIATED GUYS?
(sorry if layout etc sucks... my first thread)
Thanks

YOU DIDN'T REALLY NEED TO POST IT ALL IN CAPS! lol....

Re-pop to 18k looks in order.

Alternatively, you could flat and try and get lots of chips in on a non-Ace high board.

But I think you need to re-raise as you're pretty deep here

ill wait for a few more responses (hopefully) then i will post what i done preflop.... etc

Flat an peel a flop off!

Obv its all systems gogogo if the flop doesnt contain an A or K!!

erm... all systems go? i methinks i either raise with the intention of passing to a jam or flat with the intention of keeping this pot pretty small. i dont want to get all the chips in here against an unknown that covers us. if the flop doesnt contain an a or k and our opponent gets shirty we dont want to be getting the lot in here (i c-call a CB and probably have to c-cringe fold to a second barrel). this is not a nice spot oop against another deep stack

this too

ok... well, i did just peel against him (hated it obv as out of pos, with possibly the worst hand)...
Anyway, the flop was  Jh Js 2c...... i checked and he bets 10k into like 14k ish? your play here?

I repop to 18-20k here. His response to your 4-bet should tell you everything you need to know. Namely, if he folds then you were ahead. And if he doesn't: you are more than likely behind. I fold to a preflop shove, and will be very careful on a board of undercards.

If I flat pre here then I'm probably doing so with set mining in mind, but this really does depend on the player. With no reads on the guy I'm giving his 3bet the benefit of the doubt.

On the flop given, then you could probably get away with representing AJ if you wanted to, so I would argue that raising it up to 30k isn't a bad play - you've now comitted almost half your stack and it looks super strong. Obviously if he comes over the top you're done.

But without any reads on the guy, I'd probably just let him have it here.

So what if he flats your 4bet? Nobody in their right mind with AA or KK 5 bet jams here surely.


Also :

"But without any reads on the guy, I'd probably just let him have it here."

WTF, Can I play you every week ?

Also..

So you would play AJ by C/r the flop if you had that? And are you turning your hand into a bluff by doing this?

i guess  i should of 4 bet pre, but i NEVER EVER want to 4 bet fold... and with out stacks so deep it was made hard.. you say he wouldnt 5 bet jam AA or KK, but a live donk?? im sure he might??
as i said i flatted pre, and it came Js Jc 2h... I checked and he bet  10k... into about 14k. Effective stacks at this point are about 65k ish..
I decided to just smooth call the 10k for a couple of reasons... 1, i really thought there was a good chance i was behind, 2,  if raise im never getting action from a worse hand surely? and i dont want to make it 25/30 and then fold obv!
anyways, the turn was  Jd... so the board readsc Jc Jd 2h Jh..
i checked and he INSTA says all in...
WTF...  call or fold??

was reading this until u put......

MY SUPER SOFT TABLE (HAD ONE GOOD PLAYER WHOM I BELIEVE IS HORNERIS ON HERE)


then i knew it must be bollox so didnt read anymore... sorry

well others at the table included ian frazer...... LOLLLLLLL...
please seat him at every table i am at in the future

 rotflmfao

Yea u can find him playing at ALea or Gala in Leeds!!

seeing as people are actually speaking in this thread, i will slipppp it in here...
can i send anyone 200 on stars for 200 on full tilt please... i will obviously send first being new to site etc..
let me know asap please guys. thanks

Obv 4 bet folding pre is the same as setting fire to money so lets not do that.

4 betting to get it in would be pretty bad against some random unknown in a weak field when we are playing live pokeh.

Flatting is pretty much the only way to play this hand, when it comes JJ2 this is good for us in a way as we can check call and still look like all the small pairs and if a high card pings on the turn then it should give us a good indication as to his holding.

The turn comes a J, bit gay but at least oppo's hand will be a lot clearer now, he is prob checking his mid pairs and high card hands and betting his 99/TT/QQ hands and his AA/KK i should hope.

He snap shoves, he doesn't do this with AA/KK surely? Infact snap shoving the turn here is pretty much all the info you need, he is a bad player, therefore stacking here with QQ can never be a bad idea.

Plz will everyone been careful with account needa, i would advise not sending until a few things have been looked into.

Agree, I'm snap calling this shove.

Teh drama bomb?

+1

so... flushy speaks and everybody follows....

seriously though, i dont think this is as clear-cut a call as you say. im always shocked by how often bad players unnecessarily jam with KK/AA. im not saying that this is a pass, but id definitely look to pick up some kind of tell on the guy - confident/quiet/responds to questions. obv jamming with AA/KK is bad here but not unlikely, iv seen live donks do worse.

Problem is our hand is so underrepped that if we tank dwell he is going to think he is ahead a lot of the time making a tell pretty hard to pickup correctly.

call pre is obv only course of action. hes 40 yeah...hmmmm. So many options. c/c obv standard. Donkbet anyone? c/c, donkbet/call turn v a spewtard. Yeah thats my line :)

parhaps, but there's definitely a chance we could get a complete change in character (confident --> quiet/introverted) by talking about his range and making it clear how good a hand he needs to beat us. obv any good player gives nothing away here but against some live donk methinks he gives away his strength pretty often.

i doubt we see anything different to AA/KK here. Looks so much like AA. I fold turn

ok, well after the turn the board read  Jc Jd  2h Jh, and when i checked he insta said all in... i thought for a very long time..
so many different dynamics to this hand....
can an oldish live player over play TT here or even be going crazy with AK??
most other stack sizes i am 4 bet / calling off preflop, by with this guy having me covered it was hard..
I decided to just fold to his turn shove, because i still had ok chips if i fold... and it does look like AA.
Why does he shove though???  although my hand is quite under repped, surely its face up as 88-qq?? and he should be going for 2 more streets of  value?? but W/E,

OK, well I'd be more than happy to snap the turn shove, so I disagree with op. I especially disagree with the reason...because i still had ok chips if i fold. Folding cos you have enough chips to is my least favourite reason for folding, and it makes winning tournaments much less likely imo. Anyway, I would snap the turn cos this doesn't look like A-A or K-K at all to me.

He MIN RAISES the new aggro kid who raised 1st hand at the table. He could do this for loads of reasons...he's the daddy and he's generation-hating the kid coming in and fecking up the dynamics, or cos he's bad, or he's on a rush, or indeed because he's ghey max-valuing a monster hand. But the point is we don't know.....and holding A-A is just one of many reasons he's doing this.

On the flop he bets 10k into 14k when he's got the effective nuts on a super dry board?? Sorry, where's this min-raise max-value kinda geezer disappeared to? He's suddenly changed the way he's thinking about his monster hand no? When you call the flop bet the guy really hates the fact you could have a J (especially if he does have A-A). So when the 3rd J drops he wouldn't jam now he's pinged the effective nuts again!! I don't get where this looks like a monster at all. It looks a ringer for A-K imo. Ghey min-raise pre with a big hand...bets large to get you off the hand flop...jams the turn when he knows you haven't got a J knowing your hand is vulnerable to pressure now and he's in too deep...and he can do this cos you got enough chips to fold. Very easy call for me...cos I haven't got enough chips to win.

How many 40 year old players have you seen make these sort of plays with AK.   Live players tend to over3-bet AK pre, never mind minraise.

I've seen loads of live players do different funky things I can't profess to understand. Unknown 40 year-old guy could be up to all sorts. We don't know him. Who the feck min-raises anyway? The fact that's not a common tendency for ANY player tells us we're not dealing with a player where tendencies necessarily apply. But it's not just that 3-bet....it's how it connects to the jamming post flop strat. How many 40 year old players have you seen completely change the way they're playing the hand for no apparent reason? The fact that these two players are in the top 5 means applying pressure is a relevant factor in the hand. Also, why it matter he's 40?

people do it all the time, they min3bet pre with AA to try and induce a shove or to get more money in the pot. They see a flop and get paranoid and try and get as much in as soon as possible. in my experience of uk circuit freezouts very seldom do you see midle aged players with stacks blow up with AK in this spot.

A-K is part of his range which includes 9-9/10-10, maybe smaller pairs, maybe brainfeck air, and also A-A/K-K. But his range is wide enough that I figure an unknown with a wtf strat turns over A-A/K-K maybe 20% of the time. This vs a tourney winning pot makes it an easy call. Possible you don't see the A-K blow up in this spot much cos people have enough chips to fold when max A-K pressure is applied. There are good enough reasons for me to want to see that big pair if he's got it.

have to agree to disagree here m8. There is only so far we can go with this convo, without knowing a large sample size of this sit, whhich their isnt, and also the player in question which we dont know

Im with Trigger here.

+1

and as for his age being important, it is. very rarely do you see recreational middle-aged regulars willing to bluff theyre entire (significantly above average) stack. 20 year old wannabe pros on the other hand......

If we agree age is an important factor in breaking down this poker hand we must also agree internet poker is LOL.

HEM > seeing how old someone is

+1

Tikay = tight aggro solid
Tikay = 100/0/0.

Yo, so at the age of 35 can I expect to gradually lose my balls over the next 4-5 years, or do I just wake up on my 40th with no balls? How does it work?

You'll have bored your balls to death long before then... :D

^^I agree with this...

LOL POTY!

If hero folds a hand as big as Q-Q to the jam don't people think it's a plain shitty bet by villain if he's holding the nut full house? Villain is making a bet that will NEVER be called. Why would he choose this strat with the nuts? Isn't it a fact that making a move that's seldom called is a much better bluff than vb? That's to say it's a bluff with A-K at all....our hand is under-repped so he could also be jamming jacks full of 10's/9's thinking he's ahead.

I was comparing this hand to the Tikay flopped flush thread. In that thread Tikay got flamed for even thinking about folding the 5th nuts vs 6 villains...including a jamming 40 year-old. The attitude was if we're beat gg it's a cooler. But here we have the 3rd nut boat vs 1 jamming 40 year-old villain and suddenly it's a clear fold. Don't know how we go from suggesting folding there is a level to folding here is +1.

no because you and most others call, making it a good bet ducy?

Our hand is under-repped so villain doesn't think we are this strong...he knows we don't have a J...he knows there's 35k in the pot...he knows he can apply max pressure if he jams. I think this is more likely than he knows we're gonna hero call all-in from 5th with a weakish hand...ducy?

I tend to agree with Mantis here generally speaking. But, there are a lot of bad players who only 3-bet pre with AA/KK (possibly QQ/JJ) and when they do they 3-bet min-reraise coz they want to inflate the pot without losing the original raiser. This hand reaks of exactly that play and for that reason I think this is a fold.

If we can somehow determine opponent is better than that then I think it is a definite call. His post flop play can be explained by him being scared that you have a jack and being in a rush to get all his chips in. I really don't think he is considering what you can have and how to extract value from you. I think he is only worried that you have a J in your hand and on seeing the third one has decided you don't have it so pushed all-in.

Im with Trigg- he rarely shows 99-10 10 here or AK.

I woudl fold QQ in this spot

I would appreciate those chaps supporting the fold to tell me a bit more about villain's thinking with the A-A. daviebhoy gave it a go and i was still zomg i can't see it. He said villain would jam the flop cos he's scared hero has a Jack and is in a rush to get his chips in (really badly struggling with that strat straight away)...then when villain binked the nuts again he was so relieved by this he just jammed it in even harder. So villain is the type of guy who jams the nuts hard...yet 2 seconds ago when he had the nuts pre he was the type of guy who raised very soft cos he didn't want to lose his customer. Why is villain all over the place with his A-A? His strat is more confusing than an episode of Lost imo....and unless I saw black smoke coming out of his arse I call quick. Do people fold K-K here? Also I'm now thinking min-raising has so much merit cos I have to have A-A if I min-raise right?

KK is never a fold as he is just as likely to have QQ as AA. I think its a tough spot and I wouldn't be all that surprised to find out villain had 88. There are soo many bad players who only 3-bet AA-QQ though and min-raise when they do it. The post flop play would be consistent with that kind of player rushing to get his chips in. I think its more to do with player not being used to pressure of having a big hand and not sure exactly what to do with it than extracting value. I don't think there is much thought there hence why it is confusing.

I'm guessing you get respect at the table for not being a terrible player Mantis so I don't think your min-reraise is going to get you credit for AA :-)