blonde poker forum

I’ve been known for overly long posts so I’ll try and tone this one down.

It’s a live £0.50/£1 cash game at DTD. I’ve been playing for about 5 hours and I'm on around £165 having bought in for the max. The table has been a good spot with several weak players, although now some have left and we have had some better players sit down. One target remains however, a scouser in seat nine who is a little tipsy, having fun and getting very lucky. He plays the game back to front and is a stack-off waiting to happen. He is the reason I'm still sat here despite it getting late.

Anyway, the hand I would like to get some feedback from.

UTG + 1 opens for £13 - it’s folded to me and I re-pop to £45 with Kings. Blinds fold and opponent flats.

Flop is Q, 7, 4 with two spades. He checks, I c-bet for £50. Oppo check-raises all-in and it’s £48 more to call.

My question is two pronged. Obviously we call if we are up against a standard £0.50/£1 player, right? Probably yes - ok, so far so good.

So, do we call now if the player in question is Simon Trumper?

I believe it makes a difference. Simon had only been at the table about 40 minutes and although he had been involved in a few pots, apart from a nice float, hadn’t been getting too far out of line. A player of his quality doesn’t over play AQ, KQ, JJ or tens on this board out of position to a re-raise pre-flop. He hasn’t played with me before but the two guys next to him have helpfully been telling him I have been quite tight up to this point (thanks guys). Simon says he thinks I have AK which seems an odd comment, more designed to get me to call than anything else.

I am pretty certain he has either QQ for a set or AA. He may have the nut flush draw with AK and there is a very small chance he also has KK but I don’t put him on much else. His range from UTG is pretty tight at a full table.

I think against a random £0.50/£1 fish I can call, and against Simon Trumper I can find a pass. Does any one agree?

I am trying not to be results oriented in my assessment here because I called having said I thought he had a set of queens and was proved right.

When I got home I reckoned I could have found a pass here and saved myself £48. I don’t think Simon was ever bluffing here given what was left for me to call and the way the action went pre-flop. Ok, so he may push a big draw but I just feel that the most likely result here is that I am toast.

Anyway, your thoughts please.

oops wrong board, sorry! Can it be moved please?!!

Done.

ussually I would say you are nuts for folding kings here but your read was right.

My main question is "Why make it 45 pre?"

I made it £45 to make sure I got it heads up, no other reason. If I flat call I probably have to play a 3 or 4 way pot at this sort of table.

mbsfn to be simon trumper

lol

i dont think i can find a pass for my last £48 into a £250 ish pot with an overpair

i agree with your point here that its not against the normal fish but i still call, rightly or wrongly

You pass here and its chip dumping.

yes but why not make it less than 45? 35-40 does the same, no?

so sometimes hes gonna show AA and QQ. Nevermind. dont slowroll

You cant fold here, pots too big you have an overpair if he caught a rogue queen then so be it, this one you take on the chin.

Why can't I ever get anyone to see that sometimes you can and should pass in these spots? This is live poker remember with all the extra tells and sensory input. I had a very strong sense that I was beaten here, not just from going through the logic of the hand, but also due to a gut feeling picked up from looking at Simon, what he was saying to me and just the general internal feeling that I knew what he had.

Granted I call here in an online game, but this was a live hand and I think they are worlds apart.

I want to see the day when someone comes on a forum and agrees that it is possible in this spot to fold, even if it's for £48 into a £240 pot.

I know most of us, including me, are calling, and I did, but haven't some of us made that pass in this spot before and been right?

Are you Chris Bruce in disguise?  ;)

No, not Chris Bruce

...oh and what does mbsfn stand for? I'm not very good at net lingo.

Tell us some of the tells and we may agree that a pass is possible, Just because he moves in on a checkraise aint enough info here, He could do the same with AQ if he thinks you are over playing an underpair tbh.

More background on the way the play has gone and what Tells you have picked up on would be better, otherwise the Math makes you call here.

Ok, here goes. He liked his cards pre-flop and raised confidently. I was watching him watching me as the flop came down. He then looked at the flop and looked away quickly, usually a sign of strength. He checked, which I was expecting anyway. I bet because I'm not letting AK get there on the turn and I also need some feedback as to the strength of his hand. I admit I inflated the pot size unnecessarily pre-flop and maybe my c-bet was a little large but he took very little time to check-raise me, in fact he looked so keen he could hardly stop himself.

As I was taking my time calling he then said, "I think you have AK" which I repeated with incredulity because I saw it for what it was, an attempt to get me to call as he could sense I might actually be passing.

I made the maths based call but I didn't feel good about it and my inner gut was right when he flipped over QQ very quickly. He pretended to sound surprised that I had KK but I'm sure he knew all along what I had, given the flop and my bet into him.

Also my view of his view of me was that he would see me as relatively tight preflop because in the time he had been sat down it was my first raise and also I was obviously respecting position. So I think he had me tagged on better than a mid pair or AK.

Why would you cbet the flop if Simon only gets it in with better than kk? Protecting against 2/3 outer really isn't a good enough reason imo.

I think you played it fine apart from a bit less pre.

ok, I'm failing to see that you're making good reads and acting on them here

first you read him for being strong on the flop so you bet to protect against AK. well, AK has completely missed this flop so you're ignoring your read, not to mention betting for exactly the wrong reason

secondly, you're sure that he's got AA or QQ here but say that you made the maths based call. that's just wrong. if you're sure that he has one of those 2 hands then the maths says fold. if you think that you made a correct maths based call then you have to be putting him on a much wider range

the whole thought process seems a bit mixed up tbh

btw, mbsfn=must be so fucking nice

All i saw was 50p-£1 player makes it 13x in EP so we can assume they probably aren't that good (i would put them str8 into the clown box, i don't care who it is other than its a nit so we can 3bet good hands) we look down at a good hand and our 3b size is fine as he is never folding to it with a 'lol' 13x open, he looks back at QQ and goes "oooh i can beat AK lets see if i get a safe flop so i can stack off" instead he hits a set and you then proceed to do a full pot bet.....all that happened here was the guy got lucky, i am slightly worried that he doesn't just jam the flop into us as he might do with JJ etc but meh he should never have AA as we clearly are not 3betting to 45BB to pass but then he opens to 13BB so who knows!

Basically this pot has already been arranged pre, you got someone to stick in 1/3 of their stack with a smaller pair, sure 1/8 times they out flop you, the rest of the time they shove the 872 flop thinking you have AK.

gatso, I agree totally, I screwed up. I hold my hands up. I made the read and then failed to act on it. (It's like reading a putt on a green then second guessing yourself only to find your original assertion was correct. Done that many times also! Lol).

I would however in response say that I was betting on the flop with what I thought may be the best hand until proven otherwise and to stop him improving on the turn if he had AK, not a case of me betting to protect against AK on the flop as you suggested.

Anyway, I am very aware that my thinking was jumbled and that I got myself in a twist. I like to post as a form of self abuse (bad pyso, bad pyso!) and for the helpful feedback I get.

I also wanted to point out that maths based calls have their limitations sometimes as this hand may or may not show.

You are getting what 5-1 here ? If you fold here you don't have to be wrong very often for it to be unprofitable. Seems like you just got unlucky and are beating yourself up for no reason. If you are going to try and get away from this hand then you probably want to start keeping the pot smaller but doing so you will win less in the long run. The c-bet seems more of an issue if you think he only calls with AA or QQ. I don't see how you can ever fold to the check-raise.

that made me lol hard

mate you have to call for £48 you have an over pair and simon could quite easy have AQ here but i love him to come online and tell us all he had jack shit

Holy mother of gfgsdj;l#.. Q,7,4...???

Wht flop would you have liked?

Call with a fist pump, then "oh noes he's got a set", followed by K turn, (re fist-pump), and wait for the comedy Q river.

Lol, it so nearly happened that way ..

The flop I wanted was 10,7,4 then the money was coming my way as Simon actually said would have been the case. But it didn't. Hey ho.

To be honest I was betting any flop, even with an ace on it. Perhaps a little less would have been better but I was always going to bet.

My reasoning was that precisely because it was Simon Trumper meant that AQ was far less likely than if it was your standard £0.50/£1 fish. That may be flawed reasoning but that was my feeling at the time.

I would have tapped the table had I passed and he shown air, but unfortunately I tapped the table when I called and he showed the set that I knew he had. Sigh.

How did this not all go in pre following the 13x raise and the £45 reraise?

If oppo puts you squarely on AK why does he flat? Is he hoping to see all under cards to jam and win no more money off you? I doubt it.

A £32 call hoping to see no over's seems a bit expensive to me and Simon won't expect to be paid by AK that doesn't hit the nit.

If he puts you on a bigger pair and is set mining then he's got the wrong price. He isn't stupid so this isn't the case.

The only explanation is that he thinks his QQ is ahead pre and that you have 10 10 or JJ. After all why would anyone raise so much with KK or AA? He was hoping for all under cards so that he could stack you off imo.

As it happens he got it wrong but got lucky when he hit his set.

No escape this shallow especially following the 13x raise no matter who the player is. UL

Thanks for the extra perspective, I hadn't thought about it this way, but it does make some sense. I would be interested to know what Simon thought I had preflop when I 3-bet so big.

so simon showed QQ????

lol that is what he said in the original post!

Useful info to know if Aces puts up any more staking requests. Opens 13x. Noted. hmm.

I played with him once in a cash game and he was a little looser than he would be in a tournament so I wouldnt rule out AQ or KQ here either cos he's not passing to your rr once he's made that donk open to 13x and once u bet half his stack his decision is the same with KQ as it is with a set.

Would be interesting if someone pm'd him so he could explain his thoughts on the hand.

One more q - who trains the dealers at DTD? (joke btw before I get refused entry on my next visit!)

13xBB raise on the .50/1 cash games at DTD = standard

wow im coming to play some cash games then!!!

no way 5xing is standard no way anyone opens 13 quid!

In my, admittedly limited, experience of .50/£1 at DTD a x5 raise pre gets five or more callers

You don't play .50/1 much then? 

Was on a table a few weeks back and 5xBB would get 7 callers, 10xBB would get 4 or 5, and 15xBB would get one or two generally.   Then interestingly a small bet on the flop (could be less than 15xBBs) would then usually be enough to take it down.

Not all the tables are like this, but it's not uncommon. 

wow so many fish at dtd

Simon did say as he satdown that he was only killing time so perhaps I should have guessed that he might be leaning towards a more trigger happy style. I had already seen one or two reasonably light calls, so perhaps I hadn't adjusted the situation enough to include AQ in the mix. Also, it was the first time I have ever played with him, cash or tournament.

His 13x opener fron UTG doesn't seem that outrageous - purely because on a full table at that level it has to be big or he'll get 8 callers. I'm sure he knows that as well as anyone.

The £0.50/£1 tables can be a curious mix. Sometimes you get the billy-big-bollox raising and multiple callers and sometimes the games can be as tight and slow as anything. It really depends on the players. But more often than not you need to bet big and it's hard to get the bluffs through. I personally and perhaps controversially think the £1/£2 games are easier to beat in a lot of ways although I perhaps haven't played them enough yet to be sure.

My post really was just outlining the difference between the players at that level and how it can be a bit of a minefield.

Interesting analysis based on flawed information.

I was not UTG , there had already been a raise to £3 ( a player who had ironically won the previous hand with QQ flopping set over set v 22 that had reraised preflop ) which i reraised to £11 and Pyso reraised to £31 , original raiser folded and i flat called . Flop was Q high and the hand was now simple , check raise his £50 bet to £98 all in which as he says i did immediately , i was surprised he didn't call instantly with KK and obviously my comment re AK is to induce the call.

All i saw was 50p-£1 player makes it 13x in EP so we can assume they probably aren't that good (i would put them str8 into the clown box, i don't care who it is

Well at least i now know your crystal clear opinion of my abilities as you assume i would have made such a ridiculous bet without considering the OP has misquoted the hand..

Congratulations on your SCOOP results.

ACES

Hi Simon,

whilst Flushy appeared to have been a bit hard on you I think he just meant anyone 13x'ing (as per the initial post) should be labelled bad and therefore played against as such. I would have agreed with him if this was the case, whether the player in question was yourself, Phil Ivey, my mother or Osama Bin Laden.

Being that the information about you in the opening post was incorrect I'm sure Flushy will change his opinion of your play too, just as I have.

I'm off to watch Late Night Poker again in fact :P

this.


and very much lol @ Pyso for clearly not paying any attention in the hand he was playing. (Or not having a proper recollection of it)

Thanks for posting Simon.

I apologise if I missed the fact that there had been a raise prior to yourself. I did remember you being UTG+1 but I must have missed the original raise. I probably did so as I was looking at my Kings (I usually don't look until it's my turn and this is why).

When I came home I tried to go through the hand and I seemed to remember raising a bigger total than £31, but if your memory of the exact figure is more accurate then fair enough and once again I am sorry to get it wrong.

I was just trying give a general gist of how the hand went and make my point that the call for me was complicated by the fact that it was you in the hand, not your average £0.50/£1 player. It can be difficult sometimes to remember exact totals, short of actually writing them down immediately. For example the flop I quoted is probably not 100% accurate but the key point was the Queen, two of a suit and two undercards not particularly connected.

This has now put me off posting a hand analysis in the future as I do not wish to create the scenario above.

Oh, and as Boldie says, I clearly wasn't as sharp at 3am as I needed to be. A timely reminder to go home or take a break. And I normally pride myself on being very alert at the table.

I wasn't totally asleep but I did miss the utg raise to £3 at the time. My recollection of the exact amount I re-raised a few hours later was also potentially wrong enough to change the view of the hand. Sigh.

Perhaps I should take a little notebook and write it down so I don't fuck up again...

Bad shuffling ITT.

??

We've all been there mate

Don't stop posting , it is easy to make a mistake when recounting a hand.

I am able to remember hands because i used to do a diary so got used to memorising them . In this hand you said i was UTG + 1 which was correct . The reason i remember your exact raise is because it was exactly £20 more than my reraise to £11.

I had said i was just killing time for an hour so it is possible i would call a reraise with AQ out of position to a tight reraiser . You were very unlucky on your last hand when you went all in for £28 and i called with A8 v your 99 and rivered the A.

The fact that you are actually watching what other players do when they are betting and how they react to the flop as well as ananlysing hands later means that in the long term you will be a winning player.

Cheers

ACES

Thanks, I don't feel so bad now.

I'd win even more if I didn't nod off at 3am.

Perhaps I should buy a course in "Instant Memory Improvement"

Those ones on ebay must be genuine.

..oh and that's the last time I peak at my cards early...

Why would anyone play 50/£1 then? Aren't you still only allowed to sit down with 100 quid? If the standard raise is to 13* that doesn't leave much play does it??? I'd rather sit short at a 1/2 table

50p-£1 player made standard 3bet size, back to now not being a clown imo :D

I have played like a clown before in games like that so its nothing to do with your abilities just depends how you decide to play, i remember killing an hour in there at the £1-£2 and opening every pot to £50 i still think i can play the game even if it this game i was being a donkey.

Thankyou.

P.S. Psyo in this spot i would 3bet bigger than £31, its pretty clear Simon has a hand if he is 3betting a UTG open from UTG+1 so you can charge him more for the flop.

Indeed, if I had realised Simon's bet was a 3-bet I would have raised more.....but then again maybe I did see the original bet and it's why I raised to £45...I'm confusing myself now.....lol.........

..........but the more I think about it, when I posted I was very sure that this was what I'd raised (£45), so it was a bit weird when Simon came on to tell me otherwise. I was sure I started the hand with £165 and that there was £90 in the pot on the flop, which was why I chose a c-bet of £50. and when I called his shove the extra £48 left me with about £30 which is right because I deffo stuck that in a few hands later.

Anyway, it doesn't matter now.

The point I was trying to make remains the same and I need a more reliable memory

Hand 1. UTG flops set of Qs
Hand 2. UTG +1 flops a set of Qs


 :dontask:

Oh right, I get you. It was the acronym ITT that threw me. Still don't know what it means lol

I'm not going to tell you but the answer is there for all to see in this thread.

I obviously get your reference to the poor shuffle (re: Simon's comment about 2 consecutive flopped sets), I just didn't know what ITT stood for. Pardon me for not being in with the kids.