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Title: Bubble move... Post by: david3103 on June 03, 2009, 09:44:26 AM 4 left 3 pay
blinds 400/800 I have 12,000 UTG and pick up Ad 7s Button has about 7,000 and is playing v tight SB has c3,500 and is also tight BB has c30,000 and is Mr Loose I raised to 2,400 and it's folded to BB who eventually calls Flop is Ahrt Kd Jh BB leads for 4,000... Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: GreekStein on June 03, 2009, 09:56:48 AM raise less pre.
Jam now and hope u hold. Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: EvilPie on June 03, 2009, 10:00:42 AM Just call. Give him the chance to fire again on the turn.
If he checks the turn just shove and hope he see's it as a desperate move. He might just pay you off with the K or J. I can't see him having the ace here unless he's been very clever and trappy pre. Given the stacks I'd expect him to shove a decent ace pre and just take the pot down following your raise. If he's got a slightly better ace than you the board makes a split a very high possibility anyway. One thing's for sure you've already invested too much to pass now that you've hit. You want to find a way of getting the money in the middle. Also raise less pre. Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: david3103 on June 03, 2009, 10:26:41 AM Raise less pre is a fairly standard comment here and I am sure that it is sound advice.
What should I raise to? Assuming that I should be raising from this position with any A? Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: boldie on June 03, 2009, 10:30:29 AM Raise less pre is a fairly standard comment here and I am sure that it is sound advice. What should I raise to? Assuming that I should be raising from this position with any A? 2k'ish will do. 2.5 times the BB is fine. Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: kukushkin88 on June 03, 2009, 10:33:16 AM If we make it less pre and he shoves are we meant to fold?
We are nowhere near deep enough for anything fancy. Looks like a shove >> fold >> the alternatives preflop to me. Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: GreekStein on June 03, 2009, 10:33:43 AM My standard open here is to like 2100.
Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: boldie on June 03, 2009, 10:35:12 AM If we make it less pre and he shoves are we meant to fold? We are nowhere near deep enough for anything fancy. Looks like a shove >> fold >> the alternatives preflop to me. Why does shove >>>>raise? If you shove you get only called by a better hand. If you raise a nice amount you can still pick up the blinds and get a worse hand to come over the top...happy days. Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: GreekStein on June 03, 2009, 10:36:47 AM If we make it less pre and he shoves are we meant to fold? We are nowhere near deep enough for anything fancy. Looks like a shove >> fold >> the alternatives preflop to me. Why does shove >>>>raise? If you shove you get only called by a better hand. If you raise a nice amount you can still pick up the blinds and get a worse hand to come over the top...happy days. Shoving is unexploitable here i think Kuku is saying Boldo Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: boldie on June 03, 2009, 10:39:03 AM If we make it less pre and he shoves are we meant to fold? We are nowhere near deep enough for anything fancy. Looks like a shove >> fold >> the alternatives preflop to me. Why does shove >>>>raise? If you shove you get only called by a better hand. If you raise a nice amount you can still pick up the blinds and get a worse hand to come over the top...happy days. Shoving is unexploitable here i think Kuku is saying Boldo True..but there isn't an advantage to it IMO. Raise >>>>>>>>Shove x a million IMO. If you raise pre it can give him a chance to come over the top with a worse hand. If you shove he won't. You decide pre what you want to do...if you're happy to get all your chips in the middle then raise pwns shove soo hard it's unreal as you'll snap any push. Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: TheChipPrince on June 03, 2009, 10:41:05 AM Shoving 15 BB's is not the right move here, unless the ante's are high.
Its like saying shoving AA is +EV, it is, but that doesn't necessarily make it the best/optimal thing to do... Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: GreekStein on June 03, 2009, 10:45:40 AM Shoving 15 BB's is not the right move here, unless the ante's are high. Its like saying shoving AA is +EV, it is, but that doesn't necessarily make it the best/optimal thing to do... No no I didn't say it was and I prefer to raise myself to 2100 but I assumed thats what Kuku meant Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: TheChipPrince on June 03, 2009, 10:48:44 AM Shoving 15 BB's is not the right move here, unless the ante's are high. Its like saying shoving AA is +EV, it is, but that doesn't necessarily make it the best/optimal thing to do... No no I didn't say it was and I prefer to raise myself to 2100 but I assumed thats what Kuku meant I was refering to Kuku... :) Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: kukushkin88 on June 03, 2009, 10:57:31 AM Without the short stack who has an M <3, the bubble (this is not an sng based on the number of chips in play) and the huge (relatively) stack in the bb, a raise is clearly the best play, here I'm not so sure. I think he calls knowing he can pressure us a lot of time post flop. As it happens we're happy to get in now but a lot of the time he leads and we're calling it off ace high or giving up 20% of our chips.
Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: boldie on June 03, 2009, 11:00:04 AM Without the short stack who has an M <3, the bubble (this is not an sng based on the number of chips in play) and the huge (relatively) stack in the bb, a raise is clearly the best play, here I'm not so sure. I think he calls knowing he can pressure us a lot of time post flop. As it happens we're happy to get in now but a lot of the time he leads and we're calling it off ace high or giving up 20% of our chips. OK but then you're saying a fold>>>a shove really. Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: kukushkin88 on June 03, 2009, 11:09:27 AM Isn't the bubble with a short stack at the table one of the very few situations where we don't mind making worse hands fold? I think shoving is the best here.
Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: MANTIS01 on June 03, 2009, 12:34:28 PM Just call. Give him the chance to fire again on the turn. If he checks the turn just shove and hope he see's it as a desperate move. He might just pay you off with the K or J. I can't see him having the ace here unless he's been very clever and trappy pre. Given the stacks I'd expect him to shove a decent ace pre and just take the pot down following your raise. If he's got a slightly better ace than you the board makes a split a very high possibility anyway. One thing's for sure you've already invested too much to pass now that you've hit. You want to find a way of getting the money in the middle. Also raise less pre. Nah, don't do that buddy. I mean, when villain leads for 4k there's 9k in this pot and you've got 9k left. Simple jam no? If you call 4k leaving yourself 5k any normal villain will see you as super strong, but if you push loose villain can easily call with worse pairs and draws anyway. Don't think calling half your stack to induce a bluff is really necessary or convincing here. If villain does happen to fold for a mere 5k more then that's not a bad result really considering the dynamics of the situation. Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: EvilPie on June 03, 2009, 02:42:36 PM Without the short stack who has an M <3, the bubble (this is not an sng based on the number of chips in play) and the huge (relatively) stack in the bb, a raise is clearly the best play, here I'm not so sure. I think he calls knowing he can pressure us a lot of time post flop. As it happens we're happy to get in now but a lot of the time he leads and we're calling it off ace high or giving up 20% of our chips. If this is the case what hands are we raising with? 4 handed is no time to waste an ace when you've got 15 bbs. I don't mind the shove pre but this is never a pass. If he calls our raise and we miss the flop we should still get it in. Chances are he's missed as well so we're probably ahead against a guy who's using his stack to good effect on the bubble. If we lose it's just meh. Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: david3103 on June 03, 2009, 09:12:18 PM So, raise pre is ok although maybe 3-400 more than needed/advised
When he leads I shove - which I did on the basis that the worst scenario I could see was him having A 10 He called - K 10 no flush draw No need to post the result. I counted it as a moral victory though, I got him to give me a strong chance of a double through... Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: boldie on June 04, 2009, 02:10:09 PM So, raise pre is ok although maybe 3-400 more than needed/advised When he leads I shove - which I did on the basis that the worst scenario I could see was him having A 10 He called - K 10 no flush draw No need to post the result. I counted it as a moral victory though, I got him to give me a strong chance of a double through... WD. Title: Re: Bubble move... Post by: EvilPie on June 04, 2009, 03:03:34 PM Just call. Give him the chance to fire again on the turn. If he checks the turn just shove and hope he see's it as a desperate move. He might just pay you off with the K or J. I can't see him having the ace here unless he's been very clever and trappy pre. Given the stacks I'd expect him to shove a decent ace pre and just take the pot down following your raise. If he's got a slightly better ace than you the board makes a split a very high possibility anyway. One thing's for sure you've already invested too much to pass now that you've hit. You want to find a way of getting the money in the middle. Also raise less pre. Nah, don't do that buddy. I mean, when villain leads for 4k there's 9k in this pot and you've got 9k left. Simple jam no? If you call 4k leaving yourself 5k any normal villain will see you as super strong, but if you push loose villain can easily call with worse pairs and draws anyway. Don't think calling half your stack to induce a bluff is really necessary or convincing here. If villain does happen to fold for a mere 5k more then that's not a bad result really considering the dynamics of the situation. Yeah I know what you mean. It's one of those tricky stacks really. If you flat you look super strong but if you shove you look just as strong because villain knows you've just shoved with no FE whatsoever. I don't think it really matters what we do here. Oppo is either committed to the hand or he's not. In that case shove is no different to flat. |