blonde poker forum

A few of you may no that I wasnt too impressed to pay £275 per hand on Saturday at Gala, the exit was pure standard, but the start of the decimation of my stack made me wonder if I could have kept it smaller.

Cant remember the exact details as I proceeded to get very drunk after my exit but it went something like this.

Approaching the end of Level 1 25/50, everyone has roughly the 10k they started with.

Tim Blake makes it 150 from MP
I find  Ahrt  Kc on the button and make it 425
He now makes it 1100

I assume the next step is pretty straight forward but would like to see if any opinions here differ................

fine thusfar..

at this early stage 200bb deep I quite like the peel with position rather than the 3b here

call

and as played call

Okay so I flat

2275 in the pot

Flop comes  Kh 6c 9h

Its checked to me.......................................

pass

When you get 4-bet pre at 25/50 it usually means one of two hands. Both crush AK and can put you in trouble

This

Open fold please

check

Depending on oppo I prefer to 4 bet here.

Make it about 2400. I don't like to see a flop with this hand at all. Flat small pairs, raise AK.

If he raises again just muck the fucker. If he's outplayed you with a bluff WP him.

if you're reraising because you don't want to see a flop then aren't you turning ak pf into a bluff?

Bit different to what you said on Saturday?

Yeah but I didn't know what he had then.

i  5 bet/fold

as played check behind on flop

especially against Tim Blake

he is a v good player - but plays super super tight (ie zero hands) for the first few levels

3bet pre is fine. Flat the 4bet - we have position so can hopefully keep control of the pot size later on.

Check the flop.

I said oppo dependant. If I think oppo will shove anything I'm flipping against I want it all in so the raise is to induce.

If he's a rock then yes it's a bluff but what else am I going to do?

See a flop, hit a king, rock hits a set of kings or has AA and I do my stack.

I said to Stu on Saturday that I'd 4 bet and call a shove. This was without knowing the oppo.

As played I bet now.

It's all going in if I get a sniff at it.

Just re read OP.

I was saying 4 bet when actually it would be a 5 bet!!!

Erm.....

Probs pass tbh. 5 bet to induce shove against aggro loon, pass against unknown.

Lol

spew spew spew .              no mans land

pass pre to the 4b.

I recognised Tim but had not played with him before.

I think saying he plays no hands early is complete rubbish, he was as active as anyone at the table and we had just had a little tussle in the previous pot where he passed on the river to my value bet. I wouldnt say he was agro, but at this point I had no reason to believe he was a rock.

I bet 1,500 on the flop, he made it 3,500, at this point i felt a little sick

Finally someone who agrees!

Just pass ffs!

I pass pre to the 4bet, but I am a girl ofc.

 ide fold to 4bet 1000000000percent cause im guessing he wont be folding his kk or aces pre .

Okay so ive screwed up pre.

I hate the reraise on the flop, i obv now think im in the shit but its too late and ive already thrown the 2,000 in.............

Reading this back now, and its pretty horrible....

The turn comes the  Kd

He checks to me.....

Ok I witnessed the hand.

You then bet 200 and he insta folded.

Btw I think you should fold pre.

I hated it, he flashed a  2c as he folded

We really do need a spew smilely icon lol

lol  . obviously there is a deuce in his hand. what else would he have ?  is a bit of a player based hand rather then a hand in general. there is history of somet between u cause it just seams a strange random thing to do(either of u play this hand this way) . spew by u but even more spewy by him.   spew spew spew

I have played with Tim 6 times (3 GUKPT 1k's) and 3 other 300+ buy ins - i have barely seen him play a hnad at level 1! All I can do is go with what i know

Maybe he thought you were the value

Sorry Salfi, didnt mean to abuse the PHA, I was just muckin about after Cos's reply.

There was no K on the turn

We checked it down and he had AA

Looking back its pretty spewy, and obv a whole id like to plug.

For some reason i just didnt have him on such a tight range as AA or KK

Yeah to be fair he DID disguise his 4-bet in level 1 as something which may be weaker than those two hands.

By the way, did I mention I think you should fold pre?

Lol cheers mate!
By the way i played this hand i probably was!

I wasnt questioning your judgement, but not knowing how he plays before and he seemed to be playing his fair share of hands in the first level meant I had no reason to believe he was a rock.

Mmm, dont think it makes a difference to the hand but maybe to how he was playing, we were 6 handed for much of the first level as we had 2 vacant stacks and an empty seat, therefore people were obviously opening a bit more, but not to say anyone had got out of line.

Ash was also at the table so the cards had been shuffled to his specifications.

Lol leave me alone, looking back it is pretty obv

Are we guaranteeing he flats here with QQ JJ 1010?

yessur

I see
I am more tez than i thought  :'(

If Blake is so tight- should we ever 3 bet AK in the first place?

I was thinking exactly the same.

You have to 3 bet this hand surely. When he 4 bets I don't mind going for the 5 bet if we 100% know he passes everything but AA/KK which he shoves.

Yes it's turning it in to a bluff but I can't fold without a bit of a fight.

flat pre.

played against him a couple of times and he is a nit from what i can tell

3betting AK against this guy isn't for value imo as he probably passes all weaker As and Ks

his 4bet size is hugely suspicious and i don't think he ever has worse than QQ here, probably not even QQ.

I am a serial overplayer of AK but even i resist the temptation to 3bet and also fold to the 4bet despite having position

Does he play as t88ml or something akin to that online? If so hes not a huge nit. 3b pre > call. forsure you can call his 4bet since hes given you a pass with his betsizing assuming stacksizes are deepish. As played check back the turn you have the deck crushed, the pot is so big he wont risk trying anything funky or stacking light with a cr but might bang the river.

yes he does

please note - i think Tim is an excellent player - and my nitty comments soley relate to the first few levels - he is as crazy as any high stales on line player when the antes kick in - but i have never seen him go crazy in level 1 ( as proven by this hand)

i agree with the call pre sentiments - but once we have 3 bet - i still 5 bet fold

if your turning ak into a bluff  after 5betting wp im sure thats a proffitable play here . wtf?

Yes but you can 5 bet to say 2800  - if he raises again you know what he has - very few people will make a move here

whereas if you take the flop - and hit your A or K - (as we did here) you could put in alot more than your 2.8k

Im not saying its a great play, but i think it is better than flatting now - he might even lay down a reasonably big hand himself

Tim Blake is in the forum........................

you gonna give your thoughts????????????????

interesting topic - yes it is I. Please enlighten this old rock as to what a "nit" is?

Is it some new internet poker term like "insta" "snap" or is it something that in my day - and when I had hair - it was something that you wanted out of it. Comments about being a rock are probably about right but even some of us old fkers have a bit of flair and not just in the bottom of our trousers!

Needless to say the "rock" got busted later playing a very flairey KK v AA and AA lol

As for a nit - well Bulldozer lets just say I aint done too bad since starting live four years ago :)

haha it wasn't meant as anything derogatory, it basically means you are very selective with starting hands.

You won't know me but have had you on my table in the £330 at DTD and stuff a few times and my observations were that you were very selective and i can't see you re-re-raising (4betting) with anything other than aces or kings

is that better?

i know you have done pretty well for yourself :)

weeeeeeeeeee - he posts

Tim - i dont think people are being critical - but yes a nit is a rock - call it what you like - certainly in my view you are tight early - but then that is a fairly well accepted good strategy i think!

but do you ever do it with less than KK in level 1? (not sure we will get a straight answer)

also  - do you change you game up between live and online?

I really hate peeling to a 4 bet with AK

I hate 5 bet bluffing too

In order:

1) Peel
2) Fold to 4 bet

not strictly a bluff - you might get a fold

I don't know if it's me but I still have abs no fecking clue what this guy had. Anyway, 3-betting A-K on the button is a play that is above criticism at 25/50, anybody who says different is being stupid. Flatting 150 and inviting the blinds into a multi-way pot is not a better strategy than 3-betting a mid pos open at this level, and I don't care how tight the opener is. Also, all the emphasis is on the opener's image but what about your own image? If this experienced player perceives the button is LAG then calling the 4-bet is perfectly acceptable. If you're worried about playing premium hands in position you're gonna get raised out of every pot you play in this game.

No offence taken - honest - anyone who knows me well knows I am probably the easiest going person in the world - until the Missus is on one. In my day "during the war" a nit was a derogatory name for an idiot - tikay will verify that as my dad :) -  sorry for any confusion.

As for only playing AA and KK in the first level Sunny Chatta said to me over dinner at Walsall GUKPT that he wishes he had my table presence because he said "you get away with murder - I know you are at it"

I rest my case lol.

As for online and live - generally i dont drink live!
 
gl at the tables  guys and very unlucky on saturday Stuart

was this a serious post?

yes - what would you do if you are the villain and had got funky with JJ or had QQ? -  you overjam the 5 bet? - i think not

whether you are bluffing or not is not results dependent. a bluff doesn't become a non-bluff just because oppo folds

i see where you are coming from - in which case it is a value raise!

i just dont think there are that many players out there that are 6 betting with air (especially Tim Blake), and therefore you define their hand. In this instance the hero flats and catches the card he 'wants to see'! - costing him more post flop.

At least with the 5 bet, (although yes i am folding to a re ship - thereby you call it s bluff), you find out where you are. I am going to refrain from using the term betting for information because i know i will get flamed.

I think the play will save 'car crashes' in the long run! I had this exact same situation against Nicky Byrne in the Irish Deepstacks in Feb and we discussed it afterwards (he had the AK and 5 bet folded). I dont think it is that bad, when there is so much play left.

so we can 5 bet with air frequently early against accomplished TAGS knowing they can only call with AA or KK?

I think 5-betting pre would be ridiculous. There's too much focus on the pre-flop play in this hand anyway. You can't argue with 3-betting the A-K, that's a given. Calling the 4-bet from an experienced player is also fine, especially if you're the type of player who looks like you want to take charge of the game and play your button strongly. And I would imagine Stuart isn't overly shy on the button. If the opener has table prescence and thinks the button doesn't need to be strong that extra 600 or whatever he 4-bets buys him a lot of credit for later in the hand.....He must have A-A right?......so actually believing such a player can only have A-A is pretty dumb.

Anyway, the pre-flop action isn't the problem in this hand. Yes, Stuart hits his king but that doesn't mean he needs to bet it after villain checks. That is when the pot starts getting out of control and that is where the focus should be in this hand. That problem isn't solved by 5-betting A-K at 25/50.

I think calling the 4 bet- even with position, is a mistake.

elaborate pls

I think against an unknown AK may be a call but against an accomplished player like Tim Blake he can only really be 4 betting 4 hands. I think his range is narrowed toward AK, AA, KK, QQ. I even think he may flat early with just QQ or AK.

But let's assume it's those 4 hands for arguments sake. I think AK, even in position, plays badly against those hand ranges. Stu was let off the hook by Tim (who maybe got levelled into thinking Stu had KK) which explains the lack of post flop betting (FWIW I think Stu should deffo be value betting river as played!)

I would much rather call the 4 bet with suited connectors, smaller pairs which obviously have the implied value of stacking our opponenet or at least winning a big pot if we can get the right flop.

Makes sense. But I don't agree with it. The reason an accomplished player is accomplished is because he doesn't need to have one of 4 hands in situations where his oppos believe he can only have one of 4 hands. He only needs to believe his oppo doesn't need premium to 3-bet his button and/or his oppo will think like you do. Early on when the stakes are low and boudaries are being established the perceived tight opener can look like a monster cheaply and get the initiative in the hand. If he folds to a small 3-bet it will make the job of opening harder as the game progresses. Similarly, folding premium on the button to a small 4-bet is gonna make playing the button harder as the game progresses. Image and experience mean he doesn't need to have such a thin 4-betting range at 25/50 imo.

Sunny Chatta said to me over dinner at Walsall GUKPT that he wishes he had my table presence because he said "you get away with murder - I know you are at it"

People approach the game differently. Some are nits early- some aren't. I'm not saying this in a derogotory way but I very much doubt Tim's 4 bet range here is anything but those 4 hands. People generally use a solid image in later levels- not when all that's on the line is potentially another 400 chips.  Look at the way he played the hand post flop- should give you some info.

I think you're trying to solve this problem with some personal knowledge of the player and how he played the hand on later streets.

Stuart says....

I recognised Tim but had not played with him before.

I think saying he plays no hands early is complete rubbish, he was as active as anyone at the table and we had just had a little tussle in the previous pot where he passed on the river to my value bet. I wouldnt say he was agro, but at this point I had no reason to believe he was a rock.

So we can't use this extra stuff to come to those conclusions in this hand. We have to treat villain as random. If we did know this extra stuff I still wouldn't be swayed to fold a premium hand on the button for 600 more. While the experienced rock would like you to believe he can only have one of 4 hands in this spot I doubt that is abs the case. Or he would be predictable. And that's not what accomplished players are.

Perhaps I am giving too much creedence to the fact that the villian is a successful TAG but I don't see much value in peeling with AK here. We're just going to have to agree to disagree....

i was at the table at the time, and having not played with tim before (but not recognising him as anything other than a mateyboy) i guess i had similar experience of his play to stu - he had played pretty tight/solid up to this point - i disagree that he had been as active as anyone at the table, but thats just nitpicking really as it was all pretty tight up until then. im now aware that he plays highish stakes cash online therefore more than likely knows how to mix up his range but wasnt doing so prior to this hand. another important point is that stu had not been getting out of line at all during this first level. as such i think ak is probably a pass here. we're almost never against AQ and if JJ/QQ are in his range then we're unlikely to be able to extract much value (1 bet?) when we're ahead.

when checked to on the flop leading out is a mistake too. that line gives QQ/JJ (the only hands we're beating) the green light to instamuck. i think i prefer checking here and making a medium then small value bet on turn and river (i check an ace turn and go larger with both value bets if a king hits) - i think this line with contingencies means that he's uncertain as to whether we've got a smaller pair than his or whether we're running a bluff with AQ or something similar. the only issue with this line is that if he check raises the turn then we have to call imo as our hand is massively under-repped, but probably have to pass to the river value bet. if he leads the turn then we have to call (obv) and have a tough decision to make if he leads the river too, but i think we have to call as his range is pretty much QQ/AK/AA/KK (with KK and AA being the least likely due to cards already out)

fwiw ive just kinda bashed out all my thoughts into one post, its possible that it makes no sense whatsoever or could just be completely wrong.

Does he play as t88ml or something akin to that online? If so hes not a huge nit. 3b pre > call. forsure you can call his 4bet since hes given you a pass with his betsizing assuming stacksizes are deepish. As played check back the turn you have the deck crushed, the pot is so big he wont risk trying anything funky or stacking light with a cr but might bang the river.
[/quote]

yes he does

please note - i think Tim is an excellent player - and my nitty comments soley relate to the first few levels - he is as crazy as any high stales on line player when the antes kick in - but i have never seen him go crazy in level 1 ( as proven by this hand)

i agree with the call pre sentiments - but once we have 3 bet - i still 5 bet fold
[/quote]if your turning ak into a bluff  after 5betting wp im sure thats a proffitable play here . wtf?
[/quote]

Yes but you can 5 bet to say 2800  - if he raises again you know what he has - very few people will make a move here

whereas if you take the flop - and hit your A or K - (as we did here) you could put in alot more than your 2.8k

Im not saying its a great play, but i think it is better than flatting now - he might even lay down a reasonably big hand himself
[/quote] yes he wil lay down qq but he prob never has qq here . yes 5bet is better then flatin ak in pos

FWIW just some further thoughts on how the hand played out as it did.

I chk the K high flop to induce a bet from a holding such as AK with the intention of raising. At that point unless Stu has got me firmly on AA and believes I will stack off he chks his top set but has to bet AK to find out where he is. As someone says earlier any action with QQ, JJ is lost with a bet but that early a 12-13% stack increase is OK imo. As he bets I'm certain I am up against AK so I bet out and additional 25% of my stack. At this point I believe I have turned my cards face up which is why I was suprised to get a call - a reraise ok but a call I'm not so sure. That was why I checked the turn to hopefully look as if my flop action was a move and when Stu chks behind I was a bit miffed. The chk on the river - a value bet would have been a better play in hindsight - was again to induce a bet after the apparent weakness from me on the turn - it didn't happen and wp that man.

yes he does

please note - i think Tim is an excellent player - and my nitty comments soley relate to the first few levels - he is as crazy as any high stales on line player when the antes kick in - but i have never seen him go crazy in level 1 ( as proven by this hand)

i agree with the call pre sentiments - but once we have 3 bet - i still 5 bet fold
[/quote]if your turning ak into a bluff  after 5betting wp im sure thats a proffitable play here . wtf?
[/quote]

Yes but you can 5 bet to say 2800  - if he raises again you know what he has - very few people will make a move here

whereas if you take the flop - and hit your A or K - (as we did here) you could put in alot more than your 2.8k

Im not saying its a great play, but i think it is better than flatting now - he might even lay down a reasonably big hand himself
[/quote] yes he wil lay down qq but he prob never has qq here . yes 5bet is better then flatin ak in pos
[/quote]ignore this post as i have no idea what happened its not my thoughts and makes no sense.

[  ] knows how to quote

i need to learrn how to post. how do i delete posts ? i feel like im filling this thred with nonsense when i try copy and paste stuff it just makes no sense in how it comes up in the post . i dont know tim never hurd of him or have no idea why my posts look like i know the guy.. i want to delete my posts on this thred can any  one do this for me? dont mind deleting posts when they have no reason to be there.

Your missing the open quote code at the start of the quote it looks like

quote author=salfi link=topic=43675.msg1026179#msg1026179 date=1250598576

but in square brackets

it also says quote,modify, delete on your own posts if you need to edit or remove

Thanks for posting your thoughts on this Tim.
I dont think I can blame my play on anything but inexperience of being 200 blinds deep in tournaments. Obviously Ive played a fair few but until these hands arise you have no reason to doubt what your doing.

FWIW my thoughts were:

Pre im happy to raise my button here, i take on board some peoples thoughts about flatting, but do I want everyone in and do I not want some value from Tim? At this point we have no reason to believe he has anything more than A10+ 44+ ish?

When Tim reraised to 1100, i definately wasnt tightening his range to AA and KK, that may be a flaw but I dont know him, and personally Im tempted to reraise with a slightly wider range than this. I dont like the 5-bet to define my hand? Just seems like a waste of chips, invites a shove?

I think betting the flop was a huge error from me. When he re raises the flop I hate it, but to fold I am know putting him directly on two hands. From whats been said my call of his reraise is a terrible spew as we all seem 99% sure we know his hand.

As for betting the turn or river, it was never going to happen, I was praying you didnt bet as I knew it was a fold, saying that i was surprised we checked it down. If you make a small value bet on the river im going to struggle to fold. If I bet my hand what do i get called by on the river?

For when we meet again though if I did have KK I make the same bet on the flop.

I think Tim Blake is the best player in the world

And he doesnt have nits

Thank you for that Adam - please feel free to sleep with my wife again!  :)

Good point about the value bet on the end Stuart - much as I posted earlier!

Thanks for the tip on next time - I will be looking out for the fast played set!

Gl at the tables

To be honest Stu when you posted this thread as "Did I allow the pot to get out of control" I was a bit confused.

I think you got away really cheap having kept half your stack. I probably go bust here once I've called and hit a king.

I think Tim's played it very cautiously and that's allowed you to get off lightly. You were lucky you were in position otherwise I think you stack off.

I'd be interested to know how you'd have played the hand if you had a small pair and had hit your set?

Obviously you'd bet the river but would you have done anything different on the turn or flop that may have let Tim get away from his AA?

The thing you need to learn from this hand is not only how to minimise your loss with the hand you had but also how to stack off your oppo when you have out flopped him.

I just thought playing a 9k flop pot with TPTK was ridic in level one.

As stated I dont think he gets any more from me.
Easy to say now obv, and it obv makes the call of the reraise even worse, but I was done with the hand, i knew I had made a mess.

Not sure if I lose as much to be honest if im out of position, I probably check/call every street?

If I hit my set? I still bet the flop, I still flat call the re-raise, when he checks the turn I probably shove?

I think the whole thing proves I sometimes dont think about what Im doing at all when Im playing, even in a bigger comp, but especially when Ive been out the night before. As your sis said, it showed  :D

Hi Stuart, I read the OP and had a whole load of thoughts then read onwards and some of my questions were answered but I don't want to just pot my results orientated summary thoughts.

Fwiw I don't know who TB is, have never heard of him and on my first read through I had no read, considering that you didn't snap fold preflop I assumed initially that by you knowing his name he would be younger and therefore capable of 4 bet bluffing (esp if he is more of an online cash player who just understands how horrible it is being 4 bet that early). Initially against a younger player however spewy it may be I don't think calling is too bad though I wouldn't bet the flop.

Once I read through the posts I saw the picture of who it was and I at least recognised him though I have no information on how he plays. Yet i'll be honest he's not 18-25 so I think it's very very safe to assume he is not light here so we should just fold to the 4 bet, I don't though think that the 3 bet itself is bad. Three betting in position is so powerful and there are alot of worse hands that he can call with or at least mid pairs etc which though are ahead we can move him off of pretty easily depending on board texture.

I think you then go on to say that you bet call the flop I think? And I think you've got to bet fold the flop if you do bet.  No offence to Timl88 in any way, but people who have played as often as he has live are not going to be making moves for 30-50% of their stack in the first level they have alot more patience than people like me ;grr;

Is this a joke?

Do you mean that every time someone who looks over 25 4 bets we have to fold because they can only have 1 of 2 hands? Also if they're under 25 we should flat because they could be light?

I don't think I've ever heard anything so ridiculous.

+1

I think you extend that range to 18-30, as you may misjudge how old someone really is.

Exactly. Just like they do in supermarkets when selling cigarettes.

You have to be sure what you're up against.

lol I love how people hate steroetypes and think i'm being rude or saying something out or order. Do you take no information from how someone dresses/acts/speaks?

The phrase 4 bet bluffing really isn't a casino phrase so please don't try and tell me live players sit there 4 bet bluffing day in day out.  You do realise to understand 4 bet bluffing properly you either have to love your maths formulas or have a modicum or maths ability and play hundreds of thousands of hands. Younger players are more likely to have done this therefore they have the ability to 4 bet light older players who think AK is a drawing hand and that 72cc hitting a flush is worse compared to the A5cc fd lol are not going to be light hardly ever let alone 4 bet bluffing.

EDIT lets just remember how little 3 betting goes on live lol. there is no such thing as a 4 bet range for most live players let alone some proportion of that range that is a bluff to balance lol.

if you're going to take the supermarket selling cigarette line then 18-25 is fine. tesco's challenge 25 scheme is I believe the highest there is so no need to go to 30

So what percentage of 3 bets during live play are light do we think :lol: ??

lol i love playing internet nerds live, please play more

Excellent discussion and valid reasoning, you must be right. You're obviously an expert.

Firstly I don't hate stereotypes. I also don't think you're out of order or rude. You are just expressing an opinion and that is fine.

Taking information: I take infromation from betting patterns and perceived ability primarily. The difficult thing is assessing this ability. I have never based it on how old someone is or how they dress. That would just be stupid.

I play primarily live and I understand the phrase 4 bet bluff. If I think someone's stupid enough to think that because I'm 34 I will never 4 bet bluff then I can assure you that they are in for a world of hurt everytime they 3 bet me.

Thankyou for reassuring me that not all internet players are as good as I thought they might be.

/Sigh. You are under 40 and therefore fit into the some % of the time category!

FWIW I really dont think people 4 bet bluff in the first level of tournies, esp not those of an older age. I am talking frequency wise not just the ideology of it. IE how often do tight players open AND get three bet live, not that often (note that doesn't mean I rule it out but I just weight it as very unlikely when I consider the situation). So for them to then have a hand they want to 4 reraise with then if they only do that some very small percentage of the time then I really don't think we have to allow for a 4 bet bluff range consisting of much of their range early on in a tournament. Do we really think that this deep a tight player is 4 bet getting it in or 4 bet folding QQ? if not then his range for 4 betting really is as tight as KK and AA with some percentage of the time AK or a bluff (I would be interested what sort of hands from his initial tight opening range he is deciding to turn into a bluff by re-raising? What sort of hands would you yourself do it with?).


I think that this is a clear fold pre-flop and a perfectly acceptable 3 bet at the same time.

Thank you for seeing that my viewpoint is not meant to be an abrasive or stereotypical one. It is sometimes hard to get across on a msg board live reads and information but do not be foolish enough to think that because I am an online nerd I do not a) take this sort of information in or b) think that my initial reads will not change constantly. The steroetypical kind of read is just where I base myself.

I in no way believe I am wrong to assume that older players are tighter and younger players are more capable of being loose. It really is that way, there is such a divide in playing style between new and old school players, even between new and online style thinking types. Especially considering that most online players learn 6 max not 9 max play.


I think being this definitive about this is stupid, people really do conform in many ways to the way they dress and present themselves at the tables. However as I said you cannot stick to that read when you gain more information through playing hands with a person. It would be foolish to stick to your initial read when it is based on so little, you just have to start somewhere, the first hand you play with someone you aren't readless like you are online you have someone sitting in front of you, his clothes/watch/mannerisms/adeptness with chips give off a huge amount of information on which to make your initial reads.


Can I ask an honest question, how many hands of live have you played lifetime and how often can you say you have 4 bet bluffed (and how many of those in the first level of a donkament?).



lol. FWIW many internet players who play regularly online are very good, the game has evolved so quickly online in the last few years. Many of the online players who come to live play do not adapt correctly and just spew money, others who approach the game as intellectually and indepthly as they did to learn to win online can happily crush the games. Transitioning from online to live play is a doddle comparing that to learning live and moving to online.

I think that most online players are overly cocky and misjudge the real edges that they have, at the same time I think that players who learnt the game live are in the most part stubborn and un-willing to accept that the online game has evolved to a point where the skill level is really that much higher than that of a good live player.

I did not mean to start a live vs online debate through my vague statements that you highlighted,  by 'have the ability' I do not mean that in a derogatory way but I do not believe a live player could explain the reasoning behind the 4 bet bluff in the same exact way that an online player could with regards to the maths of it.



I think we should remember that the reason people 4 bet bluff online is because people 3 bet such a wide range of hands, this was itself because when the online game was softer and there was more limping and passiveness people learnt to open more pots.

So to 4 bet bluff we need the person to be 3 betting light.
For the person to be 3 betting light we need the original opener to be have a wide opening range.

We have neither of those things in the situation imo which is another reason why I really dont consider this to be a situation where a 4 bet bluff is happening.

 rotflmfao

Yeah, I think it's a fold to the 4 - bet without previous history. You're putting in too much of your stack when even the times an A or K put you ahead you can't be certain of the opponent doing all their gold with the part of their range that a flopped TPTK beats. The factors are just working against you.

The flop bet is an even bigger mistake once we get there. You've created a classic WA / WB situation. Betting narrows their range, and you really don't want to do that here.

This thread is getting better.

Also,
If opener perceives button to be 3-betting light he can 4-bet light. I don't know why that is funny. Pls keep up Lloyd.

I didn't have time to read titanium's post earlier. Titanium pls don't write longer posts than me. People don't like it.

Anyway you're looking at an old player and you're deciding he's going to play a certain way with no information, yet you don't really entertain the thought he can look at a youngun and decide that he's going to play a certain way. Just like you think old man has it so fold old man can think youngun doesn't have it so raise. He doesn't need to be bluffing he just needs to think he has the best hand. Last time I played a £500 the very first hand sb was all-in vs bb with K-8 vs A-10. Explain that? Maybe because different people have different ideas about stuff. You have no clue what the opener thinks and saying that people don't do this and people don't get 3-bet live is indeed ridiculous stereotyping. I am an experienced live player over the age of 25 and I read forums to understand how younger players think. You don't think older players have the ability to adjust to the influx of 3-betting by 4-betting and turning the tables on aggressive younguns? The revelation that I must have A-A in this spot is useful news to me btw.

Anyway, if I'm sitting at this table I'll be looking for some information early doors. Not this clothes/shoes type info but proper stuff. Villain 4-bets asking hero to put another 575 into the now 1k pot he 3-bet, and hero folds. Wicked. So I know right away hero either 3-bets light or he puts villains who are 25+ on a super tight range if they 4-bet him. So why wouldn't I 4-bet hero if he 3-bet me? Because people don't do that? Don't forget you're folding A-K here so when would you ever be able to call? When are you ever going to 3-bet again? Even if you're sure you're up against a big hand, and you really aren't, calling for image, for implied odds, to see what villain does on the flop, to protect the equity you do have isn't really spewy. You have a premium hand on the button. Folding here makes the game difficult because you're setting a standard for yourself and establishing an image and you're doing that based on the fact you think you know what all people do. And you don't know what all people do.

I got to page 4 and gave up when Mantis said we can't flat AK on the button v the open, obv he knows best and the multitude of people who posted on the thread who play MTT's for a living who said they flat the AK and as played fold to the 4b are clearly wrong (i agree with them though fwiw)

hahahahahahahahahahaha
pmsl

i started laughing loud when i heard people talk of 5 betting pre. Are you people fkin nuts. Flat pre is the best play this early, who gives a fuck if th blinds come in, its 25/50 ffs.
Are we that bad that we stack 10k off after hitting Top top. Only 4 people's posts on this thread are worth reading, and unsurprisingly, its shrewdies, brents, flushy's and lloyds.
5 bet/fold pre loooooool

What about mine Trigg???  :'(

Mine must be worth reading im afraid mate, or you wouldnt know how this guy completely spacked a hand to start this thread in the first place.

This x1000.

lol @ shrewdie shagfests

i agree with certain ppl but not ppl who actually dont know what is going on. This hand will not stop the earth spinning, so it doesnt really matter but in a way it will to certain ppl, so whatever the fk ever. Gl whatever u decide to do. Yahshmaish

Obv your not a fan of flatting as your a 6max donkey who wants to get it in pre all the time.

This is a 9max MTT on level 1 with the standard ridic dynamic of no-one ever getting it in pre this early without the world.

[  ] Thanks Richard James Trigg!



I don't think that's what Alex meant Flushman!

James, pls quote where I say you can't flat. I prefer 3-betting and said I thought it was a better play than flatting. It is a better play because the opener, who you don't know at this point, doesn't need premium to open a pot from mp, and will call oop with a worse hand a lot of the time. You have just played a pot down the streets with this villain and got him folding the river. Now you have a chance to isolate and play another raised pot with position vs the same villain with a premium hand. Err, the idea of poker is getting your oppos to make mistakes eg calling a raise oop with a worse hand. You never invite your oppo to make a mistake if you flat. The argument for 3-betting has merit and whichever way you choose to word your traditional condescending reply that wont change.

The reason you are so convinced flatting is best is because you know villain has A-A. lol. But I can't think why the kidz who are in MU with you also think flatting is best. Oh wait. Also pls pls say my post is good trigg lol. I'm like the fat kid who was left till last when the shrewdies picked footie teams at school. But you all know i'm ok with that right.

You're kind of missing the point Mantis. By 3-betting this hand this deep and this early we make it hard for ourselves to win a big pot but it becomes easy to lose one. Flatting is also best for deception.

I don't know if you ever play live tournaments or ones where you start with 200x cps you talk about people 3 and 4 betting light but this just doesn't happen often in live tournaments. If people are opening wide, fine. I'd rather 3-bet 910cc than AK here. Let them raise with Ax and we can get paid when we hit and villain has AJ/A10/AQ etc that he would have passed to a 3-bet.

Also, your jab about makeup makes no real sense as staked MTT players should always be in makeup since profit is instantly split.

I don't miss points Greek. And that's because I accept points even if they don't come from my fanboy friends. I reckon you stand much more chance of missing points if you give up reading an 8 page thread on page 4. But you prob don't agree with that either. We make it hard for ourselves to win a big pot if we 3-bet? Please give me the circumstances where we will be happy to get our chips into a big pot by flatting? If the flop comes 10-J-Q rainbow? Is that likely? The truth is we will just be happy to win a pot this early with this hand and don't really want a big pot to develop. It is easier to win a pot vs one oppo with position, and the pot is more likely to get bigger if it's multi-way. It is easy to lose a big pot if you 3-bet pre? Why is it? 3-betting another 275 chips commits you to stacking off with one pair does it? Your points only have more credibility than mine if you know your oppo has A-A and the flop comes K-high. Let's propose another scenario that isn't results orientated, say you flat and invite in the blinds, one of the blinds leads this flop and the opener raises, pls tell me where you are in the hand, and how your pre-flop deception has helped you? FWIW i've never played tournament poker but hope to do so soon.

lol if u think im agreeing with other stable members because it will get me in demps good books.

If we flat we aren't obliged to win all the gold in the one pot postflop. We can just play deepstacked with loads of money behind, in position, with a good hand when our preflop decision means our hand will compare very favourably to our opponent (s) range (s). Sometimes we'll flop massive and want to shovel chips into the pot. Sometimes we'll flop fuck all and fold to one bet on the flop. Sometimes we'll end up somewhere inbetween and have to think our way through the hand and make a couple of decisions here and there based on board texture, the actions of our opponent (s), etc.

The sad part is that I feel like I've been posting the same type of responses to you for nigh on two years now.

EDIT: Also lol disclaimer: I am not staked by Flushy, do not want to be staked by Flushy! Seriously, how is any of that relevant in any way, shape, or form?

Mantis, you contribute to this board a lot and I do like your different slant on things and the length and thought you put into your posts.

However I have NEVER seen you back down from a point of view. I think this quite easily be your biggest leak.

I often change my point of view George, although I admit it doesn't come across that way. The way I see things there is often more than one way to play a hand, so for the sake of good discussion I stick to my guns on certain stuff. This gets the clique steaming, and I'm afraid that only encourages me to continue. Look at the first contributions of Flushy and Lloyd to this excellent thread. What a joke. Why wouldn't I try and wind those guys up? Also pls point me to a thread where flushy backs down from a point of view. He's got the same leak as me right?

In this thread I initially thought calling the 4-bet was ok but at the end of the thread I've changed my mind about that. The 3-bet however, I haven't backed down on that yet. Lloyd, everything you posted above remains true if you 3-bet another 275 chips, and additionally you get the initative in the hand, and that's important because the majority of the time you flop nothing. So I'm afraid you'll need to keep posting for another 2 yrs to change my mind. I reckon the leak for most of you guy's is ego. Look how easy some of you guys get steamed up about a different point of view. And how you feel the need to flame somebody who isn't flaming you just because they don't snap agree with you. Understand that if I read a post saying eg 3-betting is shit poker here I will be supporting that 3-bet line strongly....because it isn't shit poker.

Just caught up with this - only one point to make


I AINT THAT FKIN OLD!

Gl

Phew, relief! I always hoped you were trolling / levelling us all. The idea that you actually felt your start advice to be good was a genuinely perplexing one.

great thread, I know this is vague question for the MTT guys but what hands if any would u 3-bet with this early in this type of tournament?

For me it's 100% oppo dependant. If they're raising light then you can 3 bet with air or just some decent suited connectors.

If they suspect that you know they are raising light though don't be surprised that they figure out that you could well be 3 betting light and stick one straight back in your eye.

In this situation i would 3b approx 0% of my range.

Whats ur reasoning behind this if u dont mind? Apart from the above thread :p

The usual continuation range of the UTG opener (and by 'continuation' I mean call to play the hand not just to set mine or flop TPTK) is AA or KK. So, even if you have AA or KK - flatting will yield the most value over the long run in this situation.

As a tournament progresses, things will change drastically and you can start playing more aggressively as a result. But if you aren't making significant adjustments at the start of a deepstacked (and relatively expensive) live MTT you are essentially lighting money on fire.

What situation James?

Oh dear, you've been basing your whole analysis on villain opening UTG when the most basic fact in this hand is villain opens for 150 from mid-way round the table. It amuses me that you've flamed my contribution to this hand when you are struggling to get to grips with even the most basic elements. The idea that you actually felt your start advice to be good is a genuinely perplexing one. DUCY?

So you saying your advice is > than Lloyds Mantis?

edit: I flat with AK here because its what pab and moorman would both do.

My advice is to resist entering a thread on this board simply to flame a fellow member. If you can't resist that temptation you should at least get the basic facts right. I'm not sure if that advice is better or worse than anybody else's but it's certainly solid enough.

:D

This post needs some love.

Loving the irony of the first two words in the title 9 pages later................

Im still not convinced flat calling with a hand that makes toptop so easily and inviting multiway action is super smart when we crush so many holdings is right all the time. I mean sure deffo v a lot of abc inline mtt openers (coz we add some deception, keep pots manageable, its early in mtt and we dont go broke w/o the nuts) but against other player types 3betting has to be way more +EV.

Id like pab or moorman to explain their reasoning, would be very interesting, or else the mtt pro's to expand theirs (10 word lines dont really give any insight into why).

annette wrote a good piece on flatting AK here a little while age but I'm struggling to find it, will keep looking

JP might be able to find it for you...