Simple hand, but did i allow the pot to get out of control

[titaniumbean]

lol I love how people hate steroetypes and think i'm being rude or saying something out or order. Do you take no information from how someone dresses/acts/speaks?

The phrase 4 bet bluffing really isn't a casino phrase so please don't try and tell me live players sit there 4 bet bluffing day in day out.  You do realise to understand 4 bet bluffing properly you either have to love your maths formulas or have a modicum or maths ability and play hundreds of thousands of hands. Younger players are more likely to have done this therefore they have the ability to 4 bet light older players who think AK is a drawing hand and that 72cc hitting a flush is worse compared to the A5cc fd lol are not going to be light hardly ever let alone 4 bet bluffing.

EDIT lets just remember how little 3 betting goes on live lol. there is no such thing as a 4 bet range for most live players let alone some proportion of that range that is a bluff to balance lol.

Firstly I don't hate stereotypes. I also don't think you're out of order or rude. You are just expressing an opinion and that is fine.

Taking information: I take infromation from betting patterns and perceived ability primarily. The difficult thing is assessing this ability. I have never based it on how old someone is or how they dress. That would just be stupid.

I play primarily live and I understand the phrase 4 bet bluff. If I think someone's stupid enough to think that because I'm 34 I will never 4 bet bluff then I can assure you that they are in for a world of hurt everytime they 3 bet me.

Thankyou for reassuring me that not all internet players are as good as I thought they might be.

/Sigh. You are under 40 and therefore fit into the some % of the time category!

FWIW I really dont think people 4 bet bluff in the first level of tournies, esp not those of an older age. I am talking frequency wise not just the ideology of it. IE how often do tight players open AND get three bet live, not that often (note that doesn't mean I rule it out but I just weight it as very unlikely when I consider the situation). So for them to then have a hand they want to 4 reraise with then if they only do that some very small percentage of the time then I really don't think we have to allow for a 4 bet bluff range consisting of much of their range early on in a tournament. Do we really think that this deep a tight player is 4 bet getting it in or 4 bet folding QQ? if not then his range for 4 betting really is as tight as KK and AA with some percentage of the time AK or a bluff (I would be interested what sort of hands from his initial tight opening range he is deciding to turn into a bluff by re-raising? What sort of hands would you yourself do it with?).


I think that this is a clear fold pre-flop and a perfectly acceptable 3 bet at the same time.

Thank you for seeing that my viewpoint is not meant to be an abrasive or stereotypical one. It is sometimes hard to get across on a msg board live reads and information but do not be foolish enough to think that because I am an online nerd I do not a) take this sort of information in or b) think that my initial reads will not change constantly. The steroetypical kind of read is just where I base myself.

I in no way believe I am wrong to assume that older players are tighter and younger players are more capable of being loose. It really is that way, there is such a divide in playing style between new and old school players, even between new and online style thinking types. Especially considering that most online players learn 6 max not 9 max play.

I have never based it on how old someone is or how they dress. That would just be stupid.

I think being this definitive about this is stupid, people really do conform in many ways to the way they dress and present themselves at the tables. However as I said you cannot stick to that read when you gain more information through playing hands with a person. It would be foolish to stick to your initial read when it is based on so little, you just have to start somewhere, the first hand you play with someone you aren't readless like you are online you have someone sitting in front of you, his clothes/watch/mannerisms/adeptness with chips give off a huge amount of information on which to make your initial reads.


Can I ask an honest question, how many hands of live have you played lifetime and how often can you say you have 4 bet bluffed (and how many of those in the first level of a donkament?).

Thankyou for reassuring me that not all internet players are as good as I thought they might be.

lol. FWIW many internet players who play regularly online are very good, the game has evolved so quickly online in the last few years. Many of the online players who come to live play do not adapt correctly and just spew money, others who approach the game as intellectually and indepthly as they did to learn to win online can happily crush the games. Transitioning from online to live play is a doddle comparing that to learning live and moving to online.

I think that most online players are overly cocky and misjudge the real edges that they have, at the same time I think that players who learnt the game live are in the most part stubborn and un-willing to accept that the online game has evolved to a point where the skill level is really that much higher than that of a good live player.

I did not mean to start a live vs online debate through my vague statements that you highlighted,  by 'have the ability' I do not mean that in a derogatory way but I do not believe a live player could explain the reasoning behind the 4 bet bluff in the same exact way that an online player could with regards to the maths of it.



I think we should remember that the reason people 4 bet bluff online is because people 3 bet such a wide range of hands, this was itself because when the online game was softer and there was more limping and passiveness people learnt to open more pots.

So to 4 bet bluff we need the person to be 3 betting light.
For the person to be 3 betting light we need the original opener to be have a wide opening range.

We have neither of those things in the situation imo which is another reason why I really dont consider this to be a situation where a 4 bet bluff is happening.

[LuckyLloyd]

I think 5-betting pre would be ridiculous. There's too much focus on the pre-flop play in this hand anyway. You can't argue with 3-betting the A-K, that's a given. Calling the 4-bet from an experienced player is also fine, especially if you're the type of player who looks like you want to take charge of the game and play your button strongly. And I would imagine Stuart isn't overly shy on the button. If the opener has table prescence and thinks the button doesn't need to be strong that extra 600 or whatever he 4-bets buys him a lot of credit for later in the hand.....He must have A-A right?......so actually believing such a player can only have A-A is pretty dumb.

Anyway, the pre-flop action isn't the problem in this hand. Yes, Stuart hits his king but that doesn't mean he needs to bet it after villain checks. That is when the pot starts getting out of control and that is where the focus should be in this hand. That problem isn't solved by 5-betting A-K at 25/50.

 

[LuckyLloyd]

Yeah, I think it's a fold to the 4 - bet without previous history. You're putting in too much of your stack when even the times an A or K put you ahead you can't be certain of the opponent doing all their gold with the part of their range that a flopped TPTK beats. The factors are just working against you.

The flop bet is an even bigger mistake once we get there. You've created a classic WA / WB situation. Betting narrows their range, and you really don't want to do that here.

[MANTIS01]

This thread is getting better.

Also,

I think 5-betting pre would be ridiculous. There's too much focus on the pre-flop play in this hand anyway. You can't argue with 3-betting the A-K, that's a given. Calling the 4-bet from an experienced player is also fine, especially if you're the type of player who looks like you want to take charge of the game and play your button strongly. And I would imagine Stuart isn't overly shy on the button. If the opener has table prescence and thinks the button doesn't need to be strong that extra 600 or whatever he 4-bets buys him a lot of credit for later in the hand.....He must have A-A right?......so actually believing such a player can only have A-A is pretty dumb.

Anyway, the pre-flop action isn't the problem in this hand. Yes, Stuart hits his king but that doesn't mean he needs to bet it after villain checks. That is when the pot starts getting out of control and that is where the focus should be in this hand. That problem isn't solved by 5-betting A-K at 25/50.

 

If opener perceives button to be 3-betting light he can 4-bet light. I don't know why that is funny. Pls keep up Lloyd.

[MANTIS01]

I didn't have time to read titanium's post earlier. Titanium pls don't write longer posts than me. People don't like it.

Anyway you're looking at an old player and you're deciding he's going to play a certain way with no information, yet you don't really entertain the thought he can look at a youngun and decide that he's going to play a certain way. Just like you think old man has it so fold old man can think youngun doesn't have it so raise. He doesn't need to be bluffing he just needs to think he has the best hand. Last time I played a £500 the very first hand sb was all-in vs bb with K-8 vs A-10. Explain that? Maybe because different people have different ideas about stuff. You have no clue what the opener thinks and saying that people don't do this and people don't get 3-bet live is indeed ridiculous stereotyping. I am an experienced live player over the age of 25 and I read forums to understand how younger players think. You don't think older players have the ability to adjust to the influx of 3-betting by 4-betting and turning the tables on aggressive younguns? The revelation that I must have A-A in this spot is useful news to me btw.

Anyway, if I'm sitting at this table I'll be looking for some information early doors. Not this clothes/shoes type info but proper stuff. Villain 4-bets asking hero to put another 575 into the now 1k pot he 3-bet, and hero folds. Wicked. So I know right away hero either 3-bets light or he puts villains who are 25+ on a super tight range if they 4-bet him. So why wouldn't I 4-bet hero if he 3-bet me? Because people don't do that? Don't forget you're folding A-K here so when would you ever be able to call? When are you ever going to 3-bet again? Even if you're sure you're up against a big hand, and you really aren't, calling for image, for implied odds, to see what villain does on the flop, to protect the equity you do have isn't really spewy. You have a premium hand on the button. Folding here makes the game difficult because you're setting a standard for yourself and establishing an image and you're doing that based on the fact you think you know what all people do. And you don't know what all people do.

[Royal Flush]

I got to page 4 and gave up when Mantis said we can't flat AK on the button v the open, obv he knows best and the multitude of people who posted on the thread who play MTT's for a living who said they flat the AK and as played fold to the 4b are clearly wrong (i agree with them though fwiw)

[action man]

hahahahahahahahahahaha
pmsl

i started laughing loud when i heard people talk of 5 betting pre. Are you people fkin nuts. Flat pre is the best play this early, who gives a fuck if th blinds come in, its 25/50 ffs.
Are we that bad that we stack 10k off after hitting Top top. Only 4 people's posts on this thread are worth reading, and unsurprisingly, its shrewdies, brents, flushy's and lloyds.
5 bet/fold pre loooooool

[George2Loose]

hahahahahahahahahahaha
pmsl

i started laughing loud when i heard people talk of 5 betting pre. Are you people fkin nuts. Flat pre is the best play this early, who gives a fuck if th blinds come in, its 25/50 ffs.
Are we that bad that we stack 10k off after hitting Top top. Only 4 people's posts on this thread are worth reading, and unsurprisingly, its shrewdies, brents, flushy's and lloyds.
5 bet/fold pre loooooool

What about mine Trigg??? 

[StuartHopkin]

hahahahahahahahahahaha
pmsl

i started laughing loud when i heard people talk of 5 betting pre. Are you people fkin nuts. Flat pre is the best play this early, who gives a fuck if th blinds come in, its 25/50 ffs.
Are we that bad that we stack 10k off after hitting Top top. Only 4 people's posts on this thread are worth reading, and unsurprisingly, its shrewdies, brents, flushy's and lloyds.
5 bet/fold pre loooooool

Mine must be worth reading im afraid mate, or you wouldnt know how this guy completely spacked a hand to start this thread in the first place.

[NoflopsHomer]

flat pre.

This x1000.

[AlexMartin]

lol @ shrewdie shagfests

[maldini32]

i agree with certain ppl but not ppl who actually dont know what is going on. This hand will not stop the earth spinning, so it doesnt really matter but in a way it will to certain ppl, so whatever the fk ever. Gl whatever u decide to do. Yahshmaish

[Royal Flush]

lol @ shrewdie shagfests

Obv your not a fan of flatting as your a 6max donkey who wants to get it in pre all the time.

This is a 9max MTT on level 1 with the standard ridic dynamic of no-one ever getting it in pre this early without the world.

[GreekStein]

pass

When you get 4-bet pre at 25/50 it usually means one of two hands. Both crush AK and can put you in trouble

[  ] Thanks Richard James Trigg!

lol @ shrewdie shagfests

Obv your not a fan of flatting as your a 6max donkey who wants to get it in pre all the time.

This is a 9max MTT on level 1 with the standard ridic dynamic of no-one ever getting it in pre this early without the world.

I don't think that's what Alex meant Flushman!

[MANTIS01]

I got to page 4 and gave up when Mantis said we can't flat AK on the button v the open, obv he knows best and the multitude of people who posted on the thread who play MTT's for a living who said they flat the AK and as played fold to the 4b are clearly wrong (i agree with them though fwiw)

James, pls quote where I say you can't flat. I prefer 3-betting and said I thought it was a better play than flatting. It is a better play because the opener, who you don't know at this point, doesn't need premium to open a pot from mp, and will call oop with a worse hand a lot of the time. You have just played a pot down the streets with this villain and got him folding the river. Now you have a chance to isolate and play another raised pot with position vs the same villain with a premium hand. Err, the idea of poker is getting your oppos to make mistakes eg calling a raise oop with a worse hand. You never invite your oppo to make a mistake if you flat. The argument for 3-betting has merit and whichever way you choose to word your traditional condescending reply that wont change.

The reason you are so convinced flatting is best is because you know villain has A-A. lol. But I can't think why the kidz who are in MU with you also think flatting is best. Oh wait. Also pls pls say my post is good trigg lol. I'm like the fat kid who was left till last when the shrewdies picked footie teams at school. But you all know i'm ok with that right.