Simple hand, but did i allow the pot to get out of control

[GreekStein]

You're kind of missing the point Mantis. By 3-betting this hand this deep and this early we make it hard for ourselves to win a big pot but it becomes easy to lose one. Flatting is also best for deception.

I don't know if you ever play live tournaments or ones where you start with 200x cps you talk about people 3 and 4 betting light but this just doesn't happen often in live tournaments. If people are opening wide, fine. I'd rather 3-bet 910cc than AK here. Let them raise with Ax and we can get paid when we hit and villain has AJ/A10/AQ etc that he would have passed to a 3-bet.

Also, your jab about makeup makes no real sense as staked MTT players should always be in makeup since profit is instantly split.

[MANTIS01]

You're kind of missing the point Mantis. By 3-betting this hand this deep and this early we make it hard for ourselves to win a big pot but it becomes easy to lose one. Flatting is also best for deception.

I don't know if you ever play live tournaments or ones where you start with 200x cps you talk about people 3 and 4 betting light but this just doesn't happen often in live tournaments. If people are opening wide, fine. I'd rather 3-bet 910cc than AK here. Let them raise with Ax and we can get paid when we hit and villain has AJ/A10/AQ etc that he would have passed to a 3-bet.

Also, your jab about makeup makes no real sense as staked MTT players should always be in makeup since profit is instantly split.

I don't miss points Greek. And that's because I accept points even if they don't come from my fanboy friends. I reckon you stand much more chance of missing points if you give up reading an 8 page thread on page 4. But you prob don't agree with that either. We make it hard for ourselves to win a big pot if we 3-bet? Please give me the circumstances where we will be happy to get our chips into a big pot by flatting? If the flop comes 10-J-Q rainbow? Is that likely? The truth is we will just be happy to win a pot this early with this hand and don't really want a big pot to develop. It is easier to win a pot vs one oppo with position, and the pot is more likely to get bigger if it's multi-way. It is easy to lose a big pot if you 3-bet pre? Why is it? 3-betting another 275 chips commits you to stacking off with one pair does it? Your points only have more credibility than mine if you know your oppo has A-A and the flop comes K-high. Let's propose another scenario that isn't results orientated, say you flat and invite in the blinds, one of the blinds leads this flop and the opener raises, pls tell me where you are in the hand, and how your pre-flop deception has helped you? FWIW i've never played tournament poker but hope to do so soon.

[action man]

I got to page 4 and gave up when Mantis said we can't flat AK on the button v the open, obv he knows best and the multitude of people who posted on the thread who play MTT's for a living who said they flat the AK and as played fold to the 4b are clearly wrong (i agree with them though fwiw)

James, pls quote where I say you can't flat. I prefer 3-betting and said I thought it was a better play than flatting. It is a better play because the opener, who you don't know at this point, doesn't need premium to open a pot from mp, and will call oop with a worse hand a lot of the time. You have just played a pot down the streets with this villain and got him folding the river. Now you have a chance to isolate and play another raised pot with position vs the same villain with a premium hand. Err, the idea of poker is getting your oppos to make mistakes eg calling a raise oop with a worse hand. You never invite your oppo to make a mistake if you flat. The argument for 3-betting has merit and whichever way you choose to word your traditional condescending reply that wont change.

The reason you are so convinced flatting is best is because you know villain has A-A. lol. But I can't think why the kidz who are in MU with you also think flatting is best. Oh wait. Also pls pls say my post is good trigg lol. I'm like the fat kid who was left till last when the shrewdies picked footie teams at school. But you all know i'm ok with that right.

lol if u think im agreeing with other stable members because it will get me in demps good books.

[LuckyLloyd]

You're kind of missing the point Mantis. By 3-betting this hand this deep and this early we make it hard for ourselves to win a big pot but it becomes easy to lose one. Flatting is also best for deception.

I don't know if you ever play live tournaments or ones where you start with 200x cps you talk about people 3 and 4 betting light but this just doesn't happen often in live tournaments. If people are opening wide, fine. I'd rather 3-bet 910cc than AK here. Let them raise with Ax and we can get paid when we hit and villain has AJ/A10/AQ etc that he would have passed to a 3-bet.

Also, your jab about makeup makes no real sense as staked MTT players should always be in makeup since profit is instantly split.

I don't miss points Greek. And that's because I accept points even if they don't come from my fanboy friends. I reckon you stand much more chance of missing points if you give up reading an 8 page thread on page 4. But you prob don't agree with that either. We make it hard for ourselves to win a big pot if we 3-bet? Please give me the circumstances where we will be happy to get our chips into a big pot by flatting? If the flop comes 10-J-Q rainbow? Is that likely? The truth is we will just be happy to win a pot this early with this hand and don't really want a big pot to develop. It is easier to win a pot vs one oppo with position, and the pot is more likely to get bigger if it's multi-way. It is easy to lose a big pot if you 3-bet pre? Why is it? 3-betting another 275 chips commits you to stacking off with one pair does it? Your points only have more credibility than mine if you know your oppo has A-A and the flop comes K-high. Let's propose another scenario that isn't results orientated, say you flat and invite in the blinds, one of the blinds leads this flop and the opener raises, pls tell me where you are in the hand, and how your pre-flop deception has helped you? FWIW i've never played tournament poker but hope to do so soon.

If we flat we aren't obliged to win all the gold in the one pot postflop. We can just play deepstacked with loads of money behind, in position, with a good hand when our preflop decision means our hand will compare very favourably to our opponent (s) range (s). Sometimes we'll flop massive and want to shovel chips into the pot. Sometimes we'll flop fuck all and fold to one bet on the flop. Sometimes we'll end up somewhere inbetween and have to think our way through the hand and make a couple of decisions here and there based on board texture, the actions of our opponent (s), etc.

The sad part is that I feel like I've been posting the same type of responses to you for nigh on two years now.

EDIT: Also lol disclaimer: I am not staked by Flushy, do not want to be staked by Flushy! Seriously, how is any of that relevant in any way, shape, or form?

[George2Loose]

Mantis, you contribute to this board a lot and I do like your different slant on things and the length and thought you put into your posts.

However I have NEVER seen you back down from a point of view. I think this quite easily be your biggest leak.

[MANTIS01]

Mantis, you contribute to this board a lot and I do like your different slant on things and the length and thought you put into your posts.

However I have NEVER seen you back down from a point of view. I think this quite easily be your biggest leak.

I often change my point of view George, although I admit it doesn't come across that way. The way I see things there is often more than one way to play a hand, so for the sake of good discussion I stick to my guns on certain stuff. This gets the clique steaming, and I'm afraid that only encourages me to continue. Look at the first contributions of Flushy and Lloyd to this excellent thread. What a joke. Why wouldn't I try and wind those guys up? Also pls point me to a thread where flushy backs down from a point of view. He's got the same leak as me right?

In this thread I initially thought calling the 4-bet was ok but at the end of the thread I've changed my mind about that. The 3-bet however, I haven't backed down on that yet. Lloyd, everything you posted above remains true if you 3-bet another 275 chips, and additionally you get the initative in the hand, and that's important because the majority of the time you flop nothing. So I'm afraid you'll need to keep posting for another 2 yrs to change my mind. I reckon the leak for most of you guy's is ego. Look how easy some of you guys get steamed up about a different point of view. And how you feel the need to flame somebody who isn't flaming you just because they don't snap agree with you. Understand that if I read a post saying eg 3-betting is shit poker here I will be supporting that 3-bet line strongly....because it isn't shit poker.

[T8MML]

Just caught up with this - only one point to make


I AINT THAT FKIN OLD!

Gl

[LuckyLloyd]

Mantis, you contribute to this board a lot and I do like your different slant on things and the length and thought you put into your posts.

However I have NEVER seen you back down from a point of view. I think this quite easily be your biggest leak.

I often change my point of view George, although I admit it doesn't come across that way. The way I see things there is often more than one way to play a hand, so for the sake of good discussion I stick to my guns on certain stuff. This gets the clique steaming, and I'm afraid that only encourages me to continue. Look at the first contributions of Flushy and Lloyd to this excellent thread. What a joke. Why wouldn't I try and wind those guys up? Also pls point me to a thread where flushy backs down from a point of view. He's got the same leak as me right?

In this thread I initially thought calling the 4-bet was ok but at the end of the thread I've changed my mind about that. The 3-bet however, I haven't backed down on that yet. Lloyd, everything you posted above remains true if you 3-bet another 275 chips, and additionally you get the initative in the hand, and that's important because the majority of the time you flop nothing. So I'm afraid you'll need to keep posting for another 2 yrs to change my mind. I reckon the leak for most of you guy's is ego. Look how easy some of you guys get steamed up about a different point of view. And how you feel the need to flame somebody who isn't flaming you just because they don't snap agree with you. Understand that if I read a post saying eg 3-betting is shit poker here I will be supporting that 3-bet line strongly....because it isn't shit poker.

Phew, relief! I always hoped you were trolling / levelling us all. The idea that you actually felt your start advice to be good was a genuinely perplexing one.

[gribbo]

great thread, I know this is vague question for the MTT guys but what hands if any would u 3-bet with this early in this type of tournament?

[EvilPie]

great thread, I know this is vague question for the MTT guys but what hands if any would u 3-bet with this early in this type of tournament?

For me it's 100% oppo dependant. If they're raising light then you can 3 bet with air or just some decent suited connectors.

If they suspect that you know they are raising light though don't be surprised that they figure out that you could well be 3 betting light and stick one straight back in your eye.

[Royal Flush]

great thread, I know this is vague question for the MTT guys but what hands if any would u 3-bet with this early in this type of tournament?

In this situation i would 3b approx 0% of my range.

[gribbo]

great thread, I know this is vague question for the MTT guys but what hands if any would u 3-bet with this early in this type of tournament?

In this situation i would 3b approx 0% of my range.

Whats ur reasoning behind this if u dont mind? Apart from the above thread :p

[LuckyLloyd]

great thread, I know this is vague question for the MTT guys but what hands if any would u 3-bet with this early in this type of tournament?

In this situation i would 3b approx 0% of my range.

Whats ur reasoning behind this if u dont mind? Apart from the above thread :p

The usual continuation range of the UTG opener (and by 'continuation' I mean call to play the hand not just to set mine or flop TPTK) is AA or KK. So, even if you have AA or KK - flatting will yield the most value over the long run in this situation.

As a tournament progresses, things will change drastically and you can start playing more aggressively as a result. But if you aren't making significant adjustments at the start of a deepstacked (and relatively expensive) live MTT you are essentially lighting money on fire.

[EvilPie]

great thread, I know this is vague question for the MTT guys but what hands if any would u 3-bet with this early in this type of tournament?

In this situation i would 3b approx 0% of my range.

What situation James?

[MANTIS01]

great thread, I know this is vague question for the MTT guys but what hands if any would u 3-bet with this early in this type of tournament?

In this situation i would 3b approx 0% of my range.

Whats ur reasoning behind this if u dont mind? Apart from the above thread :p

The usual continuation range of the UTG opener (and by 'continuation' I mean call to play the hand not just to set mine or flop TPTK) is AA or KK. So, even if you have AA or KK - flatting will yield the most value over the long run in this situation.

As a tournament progresses, things will change drastically and you can start playing more aggressively as a result. But if you aren't making significant adjustments at the start of a deepstacked (and relatively expensive) live MTT you are essentially lighting money on fire.

Oh dear, you've been basing your whole analysis on villain opening UTG when the most basic fact in this hand is villain opens for 150 from mid-way round the table. It amuses me that you've flamed my contribution to this hand when you are struggling to get to grips with even the most basic elements. The idea that you actually felt your start advice to be good is a genuinely perplexing one. DUCY?