blonde poker forum

Playing £550 final table with 5 left.

Blinds at 1500 / 3000 / 300

Cut off raises to 8200, SB flats.  This is the first hand that BB has flatted OOP on the final table out of a stack of around 280k.  Cut off is the curent short stack with around 81k after the raise.

Flop brings K,10,6 rainbow and SB leads for 11k fairly quickly.  Cut off raises to 27.8k.

What kind of hands do you put the cut off on?  Could he ever fold if you reshove?

Obv Player dependant, but he is getting exactly 2:1 if you shove

Diff to put him on a range without knowing his frequency - but the open raise is any pair A2+ any 2 broadway suited and not, maybe even some middling suited connectors.

(BTW my maths is out of you meant SB and not BB when u say he flatted OOP)

AS for the raise - well he could obv have the genuine hands (AA KK AK KQ)  plus QJ  QQ JJ

I would say he SHOULDNT be folding (if the pot is 54k pre the reshove - but u havent mentioned BB folding so dont know if that is just an error)
His actions suggest that he WONT be folding
Id be very surprised of he did!

cutoff could have a wideish range (1010+/J10s+/ gutter+overs), BUT, i think hes folding rarely.

ok so for the SB to shove does he have to have it every time?

i.e. flopped set, AA, AK, K10

he more then likely has atleast a king. its live poker and i wouldnt expect every player to be nut peddling at any table. u wil see kq kj and qj by some players. its all player dependent surely .if he three bets flop his range must include qj cause some people lead at pots with any draw and wil shove if they think they have fold equity even in this spot he has fe so im sure qj must be in that range.

SB is a very useful player and wouldnt flat OOP with KJ or K10.

Who was it Blatch?

Chris Brammer - eventual winner

Chris could be on pretty much atc here.

A shove could easily get a fold but it could also go wrong.

Just one of them to go with your feel at the time and shove or fold.

I really don't like playing pots against Chris oop. He's very aggro and you're likely to have put all your chips at risk at some point.

I honestly couldn't begin to guess what he has here and that goes for most hands he plays.

Think your a bit confused here bud.

Chris flatted in the SB OOP im the player who raised pre and raised on the flop with with little F/E behind

So you're asking what he might put you on and whether he thinks you will fold?

Well he's definitely got fold equity that's for sure. 15bbs back if you pass so you can definitely get away.

He's got to put you on something at least half decent although your cut off range is fairly wide. JQ is a possibility or possibly an under pair. 99/88 for example.

He could just be using his big stack to his advantage. Perhaps he's got A6 and thinks he can shove with FE + a chance of binking if you snap him with Kx even KJ.

Chris is a very good player from what I've seen and when he has a stack he likes to use it aggressively.

He's good enough to know that you've got to put him on something good if he shoves. So this coupled with some kind of lucky out or 2 if he gets it wrong and the 190k he'd still have anyway means he probably doesn't have to worry about what you've got.

The raise puts in around 1/3 of my stack and with the pre flop action he cant surely expect me to be folding any kind of hand

I think the FE side of this is marginal.

Yes you've put in a big chunk but you've left yourself enough to come back.

Like I say perhaps he's got a bit of a hand anyway so thinks with the bit of FE + the chance of winning anyway + his huge stack he can make a push here.

On the other hand he could have a monster and think that you can't pass.

Perhaps he's thought this through from your perspective and realised what a bitch of a decision this would be for you if he shoves.

I take it he shoved?

he asked what I had an virtually before I answered he had announced all in.

I had KQ and passed to his and a few others shock. 

I, however, made a genuine raise for info and if he shoves there I cant see what im beating.

I personally thought he had flatted with AA pre and led the flop expecting me to shove.  I dont see other hands making sense apart from 66 for the set or maybe even KK.

Im just wondering if I find out the same info any other way.  I.e. if I flat the turn what do I do on the turn?  Would a good player like Chris just exploit me flatting and turning into a calling station.

Pretty sure you shouldn't do this.

I didnt like it but I dont see what else I can do???  Options welcome

a) Open fold top pair
b) Call and then not sure what to do on turn - just keep calling or fold to any bet - tad spewy

Atleast this way ive found out im miles behind

Raising for info against a capable is bad. If you're not gonna call a shove you should flat

You are the ss at the table and have just put about 10% of your stack in by raising, so there's no doubt this is a crucial pot for you. If you had K-Q on this rainbow K-high flop would you put in around 1/3 of your stack raising villain's lead? Cos if you did that surely villain can't expect you to be folding such a hand. And that's prob not the sort of thought process you would want your aggressive oppo going through when you're looking for a strat that gets his chips in. Maybe he thinks you wouldn't play the hand this way if you were in fact strong. If your chipped oppo thinks this way he could ship relatively wide. It isn't necessarily what I would think but it's definitely possible. I think you over complicate this hand & I definitely play this out.

I'll have to reread OP cos I can't even remember the hand but I'm in a cba mood.

How can you be sure you're miles behind? He could easily decide to shove with a worse king or JQ. He could be spazzing out with AQ/AJ thinking you can't call.

Blatch - i can do nothing but respect your game - but if you get away with saying 'raise for info' this thread has to go in the hall of fame


now where was I, ..............

I appreiate all of your reasoning, but i think you have to go with your hand here. You are short handed, short stacked, I assume not bothered about laddering (and you didnt mention any shorties). You raise KQ  - you hit top pair and want to fold? - It just doesnt make any sense.

He isnt flatting with AK here - too susceptible - so if he is being tricky he has AA or KK. You gotta be looking to rule out KK when the 'case' K hits.

So now narrowing his range - AA - possible, QJ - very possible - I wouldnt rule out the KJ KQ  KT hands as quickly as you did this late in a tourney. He could obv have the sets.

Given that you can chalk up KT TT   66 as coolers  (prob 3 bets TT pre) - i think you gotta go with your hand.  I dont know how well the villain knows you, but he might think that 15bb's is fold equity (i dont - but this iis live).

Im getting em in with your hand here

Dont think he flats pre OOP with a worse K or AQ AJ even

Remember he is chip leader, OOP and playing someone with only around 23 BB or so.

Has he told you what he had?

So were basically saying I have top pair and willing to go broke here?

Im trying to go past this stage as although im still short stacked id rather get in it when im good.  Personally I dont see a hand beating here, with the knowledge I have on the player and the situation I dont see a better option.  I have to rule out the fold but I see the advantages on flatting here.  However I dont like playing a pot or making a call without having a plan for the turn.

If I flat the flop I think Chris would lead out on the turn.  Do I then open fold?  or do I continuing to hope im ahead and that he will check the river?

By raising on the flop I then open myself up for winning by him folding but if he shoves I have enough to fold and still have enough to make someone fold in future hands.

I think I would rather be open shoving 12 blinds deep after I have raise / folded then shoving here when I think im ahead of about a 10% of his range to win a 170k pot.

He has yes, but Trickett has also said what he put Chris on at the time

My personal view is that 20 bigs deep with top pair Q kicker when we were the aggressors pre we shouldn't be making a habit of hero folding against a chipped up aggro opponent.

In his shoes I'm leading with a set loads because I know I can get your stack in a lot when you've connected (and you connect with this board in some way often) but I just don't think we should be raise/folding. (If I'm raising I'm calling an all in).

In my eyes you have 2 options - 1) flat and re-evaluate the turn.  2) Raise and get it in.

Your raise size also looks like you have fold equity.

Knowing you my guess would be he had bottom set and you wanna show us you're a geeenius :P

I think raise/folding is the worse line you can take. Flatting and folding the turn is better and much less spewy.

He could even take this line with middle pair if he's aggro enough. Surely some of the range he peels with, you're beating here.

However his line is very strong and probably does lean toward AA, bottom set. I just think flat/fold or flat/all in are better lines.

One more thing to think about- your line could look like total air/raise for info. Certainly did when we were watching online

what is your line if u flop kkk or 10 10 10  or qj? ? ?        would u raise these on the flop ??????????

^^I agree with this dude. Obviously open folding isn't an option, but flatting is better than raise/folding.

why were you so convinced he was flatting with AA rather than any other hand?

Its the first raise on a 5 hour final table he has flatted OOP

Alarm bells rang very loud

Right, so can we just open fold here?

If this is the case then what does flatting ever find out?

so why raise him? I'm confused. You raised him to deffo find out he had AA?

QJ I certainly would shove, KK or 10 10 I would raise/shove

because some of his range is made up of draws just as AQ, AJ, QJ. Some of his range is middle pair- A10, J10, Q10. 109. And some of his range is complete air

He knows how strong leading looks. Your raise looked exactly like what it was- info. He jams over the top- you got your "info" and folded

I raised as I thought he would have to fold anything im beating and more importantly ONLY EVER shove if im miles behind.  (Only exception being QJ)

This is the point. If you look at things from the top end of the strength spectrum you would never manufacture a situation where you look like you're not folding your hand. You would almost certainly flat the lead. So while you might be fretting about what to do turn/river if villain keeps firing I don't think things would pan out that way if you took that line. Because of your shortish stack flatting looks much stronger than raising imo and villain prob reacts differently. If he continue firing thou I think that info is of a better quality than him shoving the flop. Cos all he has to do is make this connection of strength with flatting to make a move when you raise. A lot of the comment you make is indicative of the sort of pressure a bigger stack can apply. While it can look like only 1 or 2 hands from your seat villain has nowhere near the pressure to be 100% accurate with how he reads the situation.

AQ AJ I think he 3 bets pre.  I also dont think he leads out with any mid pair.

I see what your saying and maybe I should be flatting to look stronger than I am.

If I flat what range do you think he then leads turn with aswell?

So what is he leading with?

KK or 10 10 I would raise/shove

The raise puts in around 1/3 of my stack and with the pre flop action he cant surely expect me to be folding any kind of hand

Those 2 things don't sit right together. You think you look like you're not folding if you raise so you would do that with the nuts?

I think his range for leading the turn is much thinner than his range for jamming the flop

Set, AA, Air

I think against that range I like open folding better than raise/folding

Look at it from his point of view- he's taken a very strong line- I don't think he's EVER lead/folding here.

thats what im kind of getting but didnt want to put it into anyones mouth.

Im wondering if we can make a case for open folding here regarding my stack size etc

mixing up his game to make you fold TP? by taking a line which is AA? Maybe he just like the look of QJs? couldnt fold the KJ cause he was tired?

i just think that you have narrowed his range way to much pre ........... and your line doesnt make any sense when you can easily flat the donk lead if you put him on AA. Plenty cards are going to slow him down on the turn as soon as you show interest in teh flop if he does or doesnt have AA

Kind of agree. If he hasn't called a raise out of the blinds in 5 hrs he might be hankering to play a pot, so he could call with e.g. suited connectors. Don't like the idea of going all-in gambling my quality oppo is tired or liked the look of his hand thou. More believable that he likes the look of the situation. Call with a hand that can flop, with a golden image, looking to lead most flops and put max pressure on hero, risking a small % of his stack. He can react to the raise by sensing weakness and jamming. Blatch's thought process in this thread means he's good enough for this to make sense and his stack makes it viable. If you think this is at least possible it opens up villain's range past A-A/sets and makes calling with tp easy considering the situation.

ok sounds like there is a very valid reason for flatting the flop.

What do we do on a blank turn if ...

a) he sets us in

b) he checks to us

My only feeling is that if we have flatted we have shown quite a bit of strength and therefore if he then leads the turn it shows enormous strength on his part, therefore where is TP?  If then checks the turn any bet is kinda committing ourselves to the hand and only getting bad action.

It truly is a yuckey yuckey spot.

i cant lie

a) snap call

b) check behind for pot control/catch up

Snap call and hope you are winning?

Assuming you check then what do you do if he shoves the river?  Im assuming you would snap call.

So basically we have no extra info on the hand and are going broke and hoping we are winning.  Surely this is more -ev than raising the flop for the info that we received?

wouoldnt snap the river - but 1 subtle difference - a full board................................ (for free)

Neil tbh I don't think you had KQ.

This is what Chris and Toby said but its what I had

so what did the villain have - and did he show or is it hearsay? (im assuming you flashed a K when you folded ?)

I didnt show anything but neither did he, apart from a suprise look when I folded.

He claims he had 66 for the flopped set

How do you feel about this fold Blatch? I assume you're not posting the hand to showcase your skillz, so it must be bothering you a bit?

and if you get it in against 66 do you not just chalk it up as a cooler?

Walking away I thought it was one of my worst spews in a loing time.  However thinking about the situation and the stack sizes im thinking maybe there is an arguement for open folding the flop once he leads.

So you are convinced he had 6-6 then? I mean he didn't show it....and it's very much in his interests that the table believe he will always have "it" when playing a pot in this short-handed game. He must be pretty pissed off with the way he played the hand if he did in fact have a set? If he did have it wd for the lay down. Anyway, there is obv an argument for open folding if you have lost your mind dude.

lets break this down, raise folding the cream of your range shorthanded shortstacked against a good opponent is burning money. Sometimes he will have u crushed, but not often enough!

Agreed. But in addition to those points the strat of 6-6 man makes me wonder. Leading out into a player with a 4:1 chip deficit 5 handed at the ft is a pretty strong line to take with a set imo. I mean it's so strong Blatch is asking whether we can fold K-Q in this spot. I like that leading out with strength line but I don't know about it here. I mean unless Blatch has been very aggressive why does set man think Blatch is gonna play back at him? Blatch doesn't have the chips to float or get funky and it's gonna take big balls to raise with air. So really, leading with 6-6 only works vs the very thin end of Blatch's raising range. So if Blatch folds most of his range who can figure why villain leads with a set?

i think the only reasonable answer ot this is that he doesnt think there is enough money in the pot to come over the top all in (with a genuine hand), if he c/r the expected c-bet - so he decides to juice it?

Maybe im giving him too much credit (something I do to a lot of players) and maybe im over complicating things.  I said at the time that if he checks the flop I think we get it in on the flop very easily. 

He swears he had 66 and even told a mutual friend at the time who confirmed later he had 66, so I believe thats what he had.

well if it was a final table and he has the chip lead guess he figures due to icm u wont call without 10 10 or kk so makes it easy for him to set u in. maybe?????. i havnt really thought bout the hnd to much cause basically when u put a guy on 1 hand AA i always call and say show me the hand. esp when there is other reasons why he might not have the hand he is repping. 

 i think u over thinking here and if u playin for the win playin shorthanded u cant put a guy on a super thin range cause people spaz out alot more then ude expect. maybe he didnt have 66 or maybe he did. maybe he had  the nuts and lied cause u folded when u looked commited and he felt he was gutted bout not gettin all ya chips. if u didnt see his hand ide never believe what they say anyway cause everyone lies.

Agree with a lot of this.

People do tend to spaz out esp. short handed.

he's bound to say he had a set- would you tell you opponent you had QJ?

I think you're definitely giving him too much credit for a hand. If you were giving him max credit as a player you would widen his range past one or two hands imo. This guy wants to win bad so will take risks. In the same way villain is maybe not giving you enough credit for a hand, but generally giving you max credit to be able to make a move/find a fold. So it's possible that both of you just fecked your respective hands/reads up a bit. If he's fecked it up and got max respect from tp folding oppo he prob would lie, and that lie generally wont change later. Yeah "I fecked up and lied" isn't a confession you necessarily want to make imo.

If you do commit to your hand and you win a 180k pot you get yourself into the mix of this game. You will have chips to raise which gives you a very good winning chance in this 5-handed game. If you fold you're down to 15bb's and hoping for a hand like K-Q to jam with. So there's a massive trade off there. And to make that trade you must be like 100% you're beat. With no actual read you think that's true just from the action alone.

FWIW I think the problem for you in this hand is your pessimistic attitude at the start. If villain hasn't called a raise from the blinds in 5 hrs he can call like 2% of his stack quite wide, especially with a golden image vs a thinking ss he can pressure. But for you immediately "alarm bells rang very loud". This attitude deffo leads you to play your hand too fast on the flop. And it leads you to force fit all villain's actions into this very small alarm bell ringing range that you've already decided he has. He simply doesn't need A-A to play a pot with you here. If you tweaked that attitude pre-flop and you see villain as dumb for wanting to play da Blatch in a pot oop and it's a great opportunity to double-up with a genuine raising hand you would see things differently when the K flops.

actually neil i remember asking for your stack size BEFORE i even bet the flop and your reply was "about 60k" which made a significant difference as to how i then played the hand

chris on toby's account

100th post and i didnt even write it fml

What did you have Chris?

I think it completely depends what the cut off thinks of the SB. If the SB thinks the CO opens a reasonable amount but then plays fit or fold post pretty much then bet-folding here is fine. Once the CO raises I think he is getting shoved on with KJ+ and QJ hands. Once the CO raises he really cant fold. FWIW even though the CO is the shortest stack he isn't that near to push fold mode and isn't in a position where he cant raise fold pre, so I don't think his pre-flop range has to be that tight.

I think he CO could easily have AA/AK some percentage of the time, considering he is calling out of the SB then the better he is the tighter his range is as he's calling 6700 not 5200 as it would be from BB. I don't think hands like suited Kings like K5 etc are in his range so pf his range is prob something like (22-88/AK-AT/KQ/KJ/QJ/JTs etc) Once CO raises the flop I think that he has 1 pair or is bluffing looking to fold thinking that he can never re-shove with a non v strong hand.

Considering that the board is rainbow I don't really see that many hands without any special dynamics being discussed that the CO really wants to raise the flop with. Unless he has a monster he wont like being jammed on, and if the SB is competent and could be lead folding with air then just calling gives him the opportunity to see your range as weaker and maybe continue to barrel depending on how the texture of the board runs out.

As played raise folding Kx seems horrible with this stack size. If CO calls the flop and turn is an offsuit deuce and he leads strong again I think you can make a much better judged fold because by going one street further I think we eliminate some percentage of the hands that he just lead the flop to try to take it down with. I'd be more tempted to call down on an Ace or a scare card rather than a blank I think.