blonde poker forum

Villain is Eric Baldwin who I have never played against, but various people have told me he is excellent..

what should I do here?

PokerStars Game #33081856623: Tournament #200909045, $5000+$200 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (30/60) - 2009/09/20 22:42:27 WET [2009/09/20 17:42:27 ET]
Table '200909045 205' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: AWice (21530 in chips)
Seat 2: sYsonator (16470 in chips)
Seat 3: chrisjester (18950 in chips)
Seat 4: inTilt (21010 in chips)
Seat 5: grindnitout (24205 in chips)
Seat 6: GotURead (22315 in chips)
Seat 7: Beto777 (21005 in chips)
Seat 8: basebaldy (17375 in chips)
Seat 9: The Camel (17515 in chips)
sYsonator: posts small blind 30
chrisjester: posts big blind 60
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to The Camel [As Ah]
inTilt: folds
grindnitout: folds
GotURead: folds
Beto777: folds
AWice said, "lol i only listen to players that win"
AWice said, "sry"
AWice said, "like camel"
basebaldy: raises 120 to 180
chrisjester said, "then you should listen to me"
AWice said, "beto, goturead, baldy"
The Camel: raises 360 to 540
AWice said, "they all win"
AWice: folds
sYsonator: folds
chrisjester: folds
basebaldy: calls 360
*** FLOP *** [5c 3d 2h]
basebaldy: bets 775


what next?

tough keith, if u peel here then maybe you are compelled to call a potntial 3 barrells. If you raise the flop, how do you plan to continue if he 3bets the flop.
I probs take the call line on the flop. Saying you haven't played against basebaldy, does he know you?? if not then it is a pretty weird line to donk lead a set or better into an unknown.

If i raise the flop and he calls, im checking back on all turns. If he 3bets the flop you have to hate your life and fold. Its a weird dynamic, because baldy prolly knows you are far too deep to get all in with an overpair here, thus giving him leverage to force the pot off you. Im happy peeling the flop for starters.

p.s i flat preflop

I don't think you can do much other than call the flop.

I think raising would not get us very far because unless he b3b a set on the flop thinking you'll over play something then he'll be bet calling or bet folding.

By calling we keep all his airy hands in the pot, but he could also be leading with a pr+str8 draw kind of hand, 45/56s if he flats those to your 3 bet. Do you think he can have 35 2 pair combos?

How active had you been do you have any session stats? Do you think a better play would be to flat pre in this kind of tournament when the stacks are so deep early? especially considering how much people love to squeeze?

Do you think he leads 77-JJ here to fold to a raise and reassess turns when called?


If you call the flop, how often do we reckon to get a free river card and how do we act on different turns is kinda important.

God how the f do you get 283 bets in in a tourny.

lol, I only read this far into your obv brag post

Ha yeah obv brag post about being a winner.

I hate the raise pre, flat and play da streets.

I can only see one option now, flat.


By being a nit, the true playa's had 500+ by now.

Interested here in the hate for the raise pre with AA.

Is this simply because we're so deepstacked in a tourney with players who are supposed to know what they're doing that it smacks of being too obvious and will let them knock us about later in the hand?

Are Flushy/Trigg re-raising any hand here, something like six five blue, or just flatting anything they're playing?

I probably just flat my entire range but yeah would rather 3b 56blue than AA, post flop i never want to play a big pot with 1 pair and if AA improves past 1 pair its near impossible to win a big pot, that is unless someone flops an underset in which case we get paid if we flat anyway (also they would be wary of top set this deep if we had 3b)

Anyway yeah pretty much flat our whole range unless we are thinning.

Fair enough, I prolly should have flatted and I did consider it but Baldwin had played pretty tight to this point and hadn't opened more than 2 pots in 45 minutes. I was obv hoping he had KK or QQ and we could play for stacks pre.

Anyways he here is how the pot developed:

PokerStars Game #33081856623: Tournament #200909045, $5000+$200 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (30/60) - 2009/09/20 22:42:27 WET [2009/09/20 17:42:27 ET]
Table '200909045 205' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: AWice (21530 in chips)
Seat 2: sYsonator (16470 in chips)
Seat 3: chrisjester (18950 in chips)
Seat 4: inTilt (21010 in chips)
Seat 5: grindnitout (24205 in chips)
Seat 6: GotURead (22315 in chips)
Seat 7: Beto777 (21005 in chips)
Seat 8: basebaldy (17375 in chips)
Seat 9: The Camel (17515 in chips)
sYsonator: posts small blind 30
chrisjester: posts big blind 60
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to The Camel [As Ah]
inTilt: folds
grindnitout: folds
GotURead: folds
Beto777: folds
AWice said, "lol i only listen to players that win"
AWice said, "sry"
AWice said, "like camel"
basebaldy: raises 120 to 180
chrisjester said, "then you should listen to me"
AWice said, "beto, goturead, baldy"
The Camel: raises 360 to 540
AWice said, "they all win"
AWice: folds
sYsonator: folds
chrisjester: folds
basebaldy: calls 360
*** FLOP *** [5c 3d 2h]
basebaldy: bets 775
The Camel: calls 775
*** TURN *** [5c 3d 2h] [9d]
AWice said, "ya nitgrinding 1/2 NL isnt being a winner"
basebaldy: bets 1465
The Camel: calls 1465
*** RIVER *** [5c 3d 2h 9d] [7h]
basebaldy: bets 4775


Call or pass?

Lo Kieth, im 1000% unconvinced about not having a 3b range preflop, it sits uncomfortably with me. Mainly because i think preflop aggression has such enormous image value, especially in early stages when there is abundant dead wood that overplays marginal holdings. I think its a style thing personally, although i could debate it to the max. As played, call, call, call is perfectly fine. Raising overeps your hand and even though i expect hes almost never bluffing, your range looks like AK/AQ/QQ a lot. His river betsizing is scary, but fuck that, we have AA and his line is freaky.

God how sick.

I dunno i'd probably call river but i'm really not liking it. Considering how we dont like many of our options post I think it shows why we should flat pre. When we 3 bet and we have the hand it looks like every time we get lead into it's horrible and we are stuck to only calling or folding imo.

keith you said you'd played pretty snug (had you shown anything down/done any other 3bets?), do you not think that is more of a reason to flat than to try and get him to put in so many bets pre against a tight player.

also if checked to i'm assuming we are checking back the flop?

Disgusting decision. I'd fold tho. *puke*

it looks awfully like he is taking you on a trip to valuetown and I'd really want to fold this

This isnt 5-10 a European site, this is a $5kfo on PokerStars.


Again plz play this event!

Oh i fold.

i rr pre most of the time & call every street.
live, maybe i'd pick something up to make a fold somewhere along the way

i call flop and reraise tun at the levels i am playing more often than not i am against someone with 66+ rather than a set

huh?! it looks more like we have exactly what we have.  I doubt he's going to try make us fold this, so i fold.

how does our hand look like AA we 3b pre called post and on the turn
range is huge at levels i usually play

this isnt a torny u usually play tho..

i know but u saying people at this level always have a set here and never TT-KK where they like to see a flop without an ace then start the betting

i can't see him calling the 3bet and leading 3 streets with pocket 10s, cos he only gets called by KK/AA and folds out AK/other stuff. Just looks so much like a set and our hand is likely to be face up.

id weight his range to a set or air.  and id guess itd be too reckless to empty the clip with air at this stage where camels range is really KK+ unless they have sufficient history which would make him think he has a good % chance of making him fold out those hands.  as i dont think thats the case, you gotta fold.

would we have not been better making it 4.5k on the turn
if he ships in now or the river we can fold
but we get the chance he flats then checks

we dont want to fold out his bluff lines and keep in his set's though.

but we are going to end up folding to his bet on river so have given ourself no chance of winning this pot

but we dont know what hes going to do on the river yet!

we can assume he is going to fire a 3rd barrell if he is a decent player and he knows he is playing a decent player, only time you every check the river here is if your playing a donkey he sees the check as weakness and a chance to steal
so by betting turn you either win the pot ,slow him down, or find out your beat

there is no checking in this hand, we have position

Where do you find the fold?

And if the flop is checked to us are you checking back 100%?

i meant as villain

Villain is excellent? This is a super tough 5k event?! (grats on cash btw) That being so, villain can most def call with a super wide range and try to barrel us off. Hero's 3b range is i assume totally UNpolarised and includes a fuckload of 1 pair and no pair hands at least until the turn. Pretty sure a chunk of this field would most def float at least flop w AK/AQ +bdfd and another (smaller chunk) peels turn also. Without reads on villain and his tendencies/donking ranges hu, ill give my thoughts.

I think its a bit of a huge assumption to suggest that:-

a) this guys opening all small pps this early from this position
b) hes calling a 3b OOP v a noted tough player, against whom i guess he realises his implied are significantly hacked off (hes excellent...)
c) he then elects to LEAD a super dry board with a set 3 streets, virtually gauranteeing that hero will never bluff and never get a chance to semi said superdry board.

Ill try to balance the debate:-

a) we have AA, significantly reducing the straight, wheel, betbetbet hands he can have.
b) we are deep, his line is superstrong, hands like 45s/55 (cant remember board now, think it was 234 but u get my drift) he might decide to triple given how by the river, the way we got here makes our hand look like a big pair which could well fold to this heat.
c) has absolutely can be valuetowning himself here with KK, poss QQ also. This is huge.
d) he has to have air at least some of the time
e) people that utilise donkbets often spew

I agree with this.

I think that by the river, the bet sizing says alot and it looks like he has a set/2pr for value or pairs +sd's or other big pairs that he is now turning into a bluff once we call the turn.


How would we have played if we had happened to 3 bet 56s or something here ourselves and he'd lead into us on this flop. Is it a case this deep that we should always be flatting the flop regardless of what we have. If he doesn't think small pairs are in our 3 betting range then he can be pretty confident that we dont have a set and so could just have bet the flop with the intention of firing 3 streets.




What would you say your 3 betting range is here Keith, are you 3 betting QQ/AK/AQ/67s etc?

Errm yeah most people open pairs, especially in big events.

Yeah usually they would call a 3b sat ~250 deep.

He is trying to get ~100+ BB out of his set, no trying to pick off a CB.

Big tournaments that play super deep like this are not like cash and they are not like regular MTT's (i have found this out the hard way) the 3 assumptions are far more likely than:

He is going to triple barrell a combo hand that missed

He is value towning KK/QQ

He has air (lolz at this one)

Your aversion to donkbets in deep structured MTT's is not to be projected, they are v useful. In the same way i hate 3betting it doesn't mean i rule out my opponents 3 betting!

I don't think he has KK, QQ or JJ.

I am pretty sure he would check call with these hands.

The only hands I can beat are 44, 34, 45.

Interesting thread,sure prob will ever matter to me but still :)

Did you fold then keith ?

id imagine 99% of the field in this comp will open any pair from any position this deep. I imagine he puts camel on a big pair after his 3x 3bet pre antes. Villain has flopped a set and is trying to get three streets of value imho. For villain to be 3barrell bluffing here to a 3better pre antes in a 5k would be very folly imo. Think hero took the best line.
Do we vbet if checked to on the river?

Why did he donk if he's flopped a set and puts me on a big pair?

I dunno, maybe raising the flop and folding to a 3 bet was the best line.

raising flop or turn and folding to a 3 bet works better for me than folding river

Good post.

I'd say over the long haul, just calling down flop and turn and making a decision on river based on final board texture / betsizing / timing tells probably carries more value than raising the flop. In the former scenario you will end up feeling silly every so often, but when you take the latter route he basically plays you perfect every time.

i like ur line completely if you folded the river Keith. Flatting AA is pissing equity into the wind given this structure.

this thread gets my vote for hand of the year so far tbh, purely because its tough, higher stakes than 95% on here are used to and we are so deep v an excellent player. results please.

For that reason it doesn't imo,very interesting thread but not much use esp short/medium term to most on here

Good thread tho

Surely my vegas one wins,it had it all  ;D

But the route hero has taken has still put him in a tough spot (unless you think it isn't).

I disagree, it always healthy to read and discuss interesting hands. The thought processes are always good to go through and only can help your game no matter what level you play at.

I was really just referring to the main part about 3betting pre,i agree it's a good thread and useful for medium stakes as well a was just meaning for it being pha thread of the year

It's the stack sizes and player ability that make this hand interesting not the fact it says 5000 at the top of the hh.

No matter what level you play hearing good players discussing hands can only help.

Norrrrrrr what have i done...

I agree thread is useful to non high rollers just the main early discussion of the thread was the bit i was thinking about and we do have a range we 3bet with in lower buy in comps full of fish.

Basically what i ment to say came out all wrong,nevamind

Not raggin on ya.


I agree, i'd like more discussion from those who played, re what is being 3 bet? How did the dynamic play early?

I saw some ridic stuff later on was everyone just nitting it up and letting coolers do the work?



as an aside,

opened up Isaac Haxtons table to see Btn open, sb 3 bet Isaac in bb 4 bet jam for 1.5mill at 5k/10k I think. Btn calls ai for 1mill. SB snaps for 750k.

Haxton has  6h 7h
Btn has  Aspades Kc
SB has  Jh Jc

flop  5h Ts 8h

turn  Js

river  Tc


he must have loved flop so hard, that would be epic binkage.

Oh, I folded btw.

I remember watching this hand when it happened and wondering what you had Keith.

I think if the opposition is excellent I wouldn't be 3 betting my AA pre as he wont be looking to get KK/QQ in pre this deep anyway.

For me it's call, call and spewing call thereafter.

No, it is an extremely difficult spot. But I nonetheless believe it's the most profitable way to play it despite that. Sometimes there is little you can do. This deep and against this quality of opposition you have to accept that you'll be left scratching your head every so often. But raising the flop here because it makes the subsequent decision (rake pot / fold to further raise) obvious equates to throwing in the towel. Because if you play in such a fashion you'll only win if you constantly cooler / dog your opponents.

If the villain is as good as suggested, can he not be more likey to take this line as a bluff than we are giving him credit for?

Levels upon levels

I doubt he's bluffing enough of the time here to make the call on the river profitable

Well if he isn't bluffing and is such a great player why doesn't he value bet an amount that hero calls on the river?
 

its a bluff a little bit more often than were giving credit for imo.
Your in basebaldy shoes. Thought processes

• Oh camel's 3bet my E/MP open this early pre antes, could well be a big pair. I know he's a decent thinking player
• flop comes low, ill fire 3 barrells and rep a set,We have called his 3bet and low pairs are a big part of our range in his eyes, he (camel) must know, we know he is strong.

This.

Villain is betting the same amount with his value bets as he does with his bluffs I would guess considering it's a 5k tournie i'd be surprised if people had huge bet sizing tells. Also once hero just starts calling down it's pretty obvious he wants to get to showdown, so against that strength hand villain wants to bet bigger to have more chance of getting a fold and get more value when hero makes the call.

Action man, we have no idea of his flop leading frequency and all we know is this board texture that he has done it on.

What if he wrote out what you wrote, then put I know he knows that I know he knows. He's prob so confused he's gonna stick to whatever is his level 1.

good post, i was thinking similar

I agree with the sentiment that the flop might have been lead with the intention of taking the initiative and getting hero to announce somewhat the strength of his hand but once the board falls out like this and he keeps betting I think he's bluffing less and less often on each street. The fact is he is a v good player so we always have to assign some frequency of bluffs to his range.

If we just think as you did action, why didn't we raise flop? Because we'd never raise this flop and stack off with 1 pair, do we do that and own him?