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I'm very interested in the above topic,and i'm gonna start researching my family history.

However i'm a little stumped as to where to begin searching.

I've got as far as my great grandparents on my mothers side,but no further.

My mum has been great,but my dad not so,he doesn't think i should do this ( for reasons he won't or can't give ) but i have decided its something i'm going to try and do,but obv won't broach the subject again with my dad as i don't want to upset him.

All my grandparents are dead now,and my mum has given me all the info and photo's etc that she can,so i really don't know where to go next.

Has anyone researched their family history?

Any advice/help would be greatly appreciated.

The 20th century is the hard bit.

Look at www.findmypast.com first

For the 20th century you need to tie up marriage dates and birth dates to work your way back, this can require a lot of browsing - and if you have a surname which doesn't leave unique results in this kind of search then you're going to need other resources to verify you have the right people.

Once you get back to 1911 you can use the census reports to work your way back to the beginning of the 19th century,  findmypast is working on these - but currently www.ancestry.co.uk have the best records.

There are other records - most obviously death (which can be handy for the 20th century to find the birth years for some people you're not sure of), and there are other sites - but that should give you a backbone of information to fill out your research with, and whilst you're doing this bit you'll just come across other stuff and naturally learn more about how to use the other resources available.

ancestry.co.uk , membership not cheap but does give you all census apart from 1911 to check out + lot more , findmypast has the 1911 census

start with grandparents birth certificates if you have them , should give names to check ie maden names / places , freebmd.co.uk can help you with searches for births/marriages/deaths  , you should be able to get back to around 1800 pretty easy

genesreunited.co.uk should find usefull as well

Thanks Jon. I'll have a look at those now.

I have a not too common surname (  last time i checked their were only 2 of us in Coventry my uncle and i ) so hopefully that should help.

Thanks mate. I have my grandmothers maiden name on my mum's side but not my dad's.

i did the two week free trial on ancestry a while back and got as far back as three sets of great grandparents, but all got a bit wooly after that. if you're prepared to fork out for copies of certificates and stuff though, then it shouldn't be too difficult I would have thought.

Yeah i've set some money aside for this and don't have anything to do till January,so i'm going to crack on with this.

I hope to get as many certificates etc as i can so i can have something decent to pass onto my son whan he's older.

It can get expensive. I'd advise, do what you can without ordering certificates, then order the certificates that you know will definitely help your research - then fill in the gaps.

And when you order any certificates, try and be as certain as possible that you have the right person - after you've done the research, paid for it and waited around for it to arrive - finding out it's the wrong person is a bit crushing.

Yeah good advice.

On another note,how much info will i be able to find out?

Would these census tell me occupations etc?

If you go to either Ancestry or findmypast (or both to have a see how they look), the transcriptions of the 1881 census are free.

The different censuses provide slightly different info - generally they provide more and more the later it gets - but basically they have name, age, where born and occupation - and relation to the head of the household.

Look for your surname on the 1881 census - see how many there are, that can give you an idea how hard it's going to be :D

Obviously you then have to work back from what you currently have to see if you can match up with any of those results.

Family Tree Maker is a family history program , that you can put your family tree on and when purchasing it can get free membership to Ancestry.co.uk for 3 months

genes reunited is maybe the cheapest way by contacting someone with same names as yourself & copying them but so many have got it wrong on there & you find it better to do the work yourself ,

http://www.genuki.org.uk/ is a useful site as well as is rootsweb , ancestry has the 1881 census to search for free , l

Good heavens above in Warwickshire alone in 1881 there were 9 pages worth!

Can't bring myself to put my DOB and mother's maiden name into a random website :(

Trying to track them down when you're from America sure is fun.  Especially as it all leads back to various European countries in the end.

Why would you need to put in your DOB?

I was assuming it used my DOB to check a database and distinguish me from all the other Joseph McBloggs?

That ancestry site looks just the job,so far managed to tie up a few death and marriage dates.

I'm sure harder times lie ahead.

It doesn't matter who you are - it's your ancestors you're looking for.

The genealogy sites all take precautions for data protection. You can post whatever you like but most of them suggest any living relatives are listed as "Living Relative" or similar.  Sometimes they'll put the name and not the DOB, but usually if there's a problem it's down to the bad choice of someone using the site rather than the site itself.

I'm not too sure how much Genes Reunited follows that though - but I don't think it's that good a site for research anyway

Is there anywhere online i can view birth and death certificates?

you have to order them from register office http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ £7 each & takes about a week

if you got ancestry check out  seach/family trees & you may be lucky & find someone done part of your tree already , still need to check it

Jon,

How much would you charge to do a family tree for someone ?

Slightly confused.

Found my Grandad who was born 18th June 1910 died in Oct 2003 but his birth wasn't recorded till the quarter of Jul-Aug-Sept 1910.

I know its him but why the discrepency?

Can you view them before you buy them?

Reason i ask is that in the birth records on ancestry it only names the mother and not the father?

you can register a birth any time in the six weeks after a baby is born.  Eg my daughter was born in December 2002, but not registered until quarter jan-feb-march 2003

Ahhhhhhhh  tyty

It's only the index online. There are plans to get it all online - but it's a government project, so not likely to happen this century.

Some people are easier to look up than others.

I'd guess something like £50 for 10 hours to see if that produced a satisfactory amount of results for the cost before reassessing.

The commercial rate would be a few times this - there are only a few people who make a living from it, but apparantly they're not short of a bob or two.

Sorry more questions!

Is there anywhere i can view more up to date census?

I've got all info upto and including my grandparents plus 3 of the 4 mothers surnames of my great grandparents. how do i go about finding my grandparents fathers names?

Every 10 years from 1841 to 1911 has a census available to view. Bit of a wait before the 1921 will be available.

"how do i go about finding my grandparents fathers names?"

I did say the 20th century is the tricky part.

If it's after 1911.

Browse:

Around the time they died on the death index if you don't know when they were born
Around the time they were born on the Birth index for any siblings
Around the time the eldest sibling was born on the marriage index for their parents marriage


This is where a good idea of the location to look in, and a relatively rare name will come in handy. Because it's the most likely place where more than one person will fit the bill and you won't know how to tell which is the right one. The more information you know in general the easier it is to be sure you have the right person when you find them - but doesn't necessarily help you find them.

Thanks Jon you are being a great help.

How often is a new census released then?

My wife seems to think you can view any census up until the present day! but this is clearly not the case.

i thought they became public after 100 years, but the 1911 being available would suggest it's just shy of that. Jon will know, no doubt!

It's a 100 years, but a load of genealogists made a fuss and they 'tweaked' it a bit.

go on http://www.freebmd.org.uk/ & check June/Sept quarters for that year , if he has brother or sister after 1912 , they will give mothers maiden name as well , you can look up your grandfather on the 1911 census  @ http://www.1911census.co.uk/ , should find them on there , & check their marriage on freebmd  , if you can cross reference everything you wont always need the certificates

Thanks mate found my grandfather on the 1911 census,and in turn my great grandfather.Other greatgrandparents  will be more difficult as my granparents  were all born 1913+

Another possibly daft ish question.

I have found my Great Grandfather on my dads side via the 1911 census so happy days there.

BUT how is it possible to find the maiden name of his wife ( my great grandmother )? i've searched the marriage indexes and found my great grandfather right enough but it doesn't list who he married.

ps thanks to all those who have helped so far, large portions of your favourite beverages await at next bash.

I think this is the point you have to start getting hold of certificates, and where I got stuck with the free trial stuff.

Just occurred to me how much harder it will be for future generations to trace their ancestry what with marriage not being a prerequisite to having children nowadays not to mention divorce and remarriage being almost the norm.

Part of that is offset by how much better the electronic records are now - but overall it'll make it harder.

Usually comes from the mothers maiden name in the birth index of their children.

I can't remember the date they started including that on the index, so if it's after the censuses and before they started doing that then it would have to be from the certificates.

So lets say i want to find out my great grandmothers maiden name,i know the year of her birth from the 1911 census,i know her first name is mary so which certificate would tell me her maiden name?

Sorry for being thick folks,am finding this hard but fascinating.

Wish i'd have started this years ago,as i remember my grandad telling me all about the family when i was a kid,but sadly i didn't and he has since passed away.

1) find your great grand fathers mariage index
2) check the marriage index to see who else is on that page - you can do this via ancestry.co.uk and maybe other places.
3) normally the marriage index has about 4 people on it, i.e. Adam Smith, Brian Jones, Edna Brown and Fanny Harrott
4) If your great grandad is Adam Smith then he married either Edna Brown or Fanny Harrott - If you know you great grandma's name then sorted
5) If still unsure, check the next census after the marriage date and see who great grandad is living with, i.e. Edna smith or Fanny smith
This is not fool proof, but normally works.

Double check your answer by checking the birth index of your grandparents, as this lists their name and their mother's maiden name.

all of this is not perfect and ideally you should get certificates to prove relationships but I imagine most people don't bother.

I managed to trace my family back about 170 years or so mainly using ancestry.co.uk and some certificates.

If you have your Great Grandfathers wedding details, you can look on the same page for which women were married at the same time.

On freebmd the page number is hyperlinked for you to be able to do this for example

Hopefully there were only 2 or 3 weddings for that volume and page number for that day, and hopefully only one of them was called Mary.

This is good evidence but, if the page doesn't show an even number of brides and grooms it means it's not fully transcribed so there could be something missing you need. And if there is more than one Mary, then obviously you can't necessarily tell which is the right one.

However, once you have a maiden name (or 2 if you're unlucky) you can then look for that person in the year of birth you've got from the census.

Hopefully all this information will tie in together and correlate your data.

If there are any contradictions then you'll probably need to order your great grandfathers wedding certificate to be sure you have the right person - and the caveat is that at some point you should get it anyway because everything should get correlated with each other eventually.


EDIT: some of that covered already - but additionally like I said you have her year of birth from the census to help corellate

Dammit he's added that as well :D

Thanks very muchly guys i really appreciate your help.

I think there is a certain period when they didn't list the mothers maiden name on the birth index because this grandad i'm on about was born in 1910 and his mothers name is not listed hence the troubles i'm having,however my 3 other grandparents mothers are listed as they were born 1913+ how odd.

Stupid question 204!

I've searched the marriages for my great grandmother by just putting in the year ( 1903 ) and the district ( foleshill ) and her first name ( mary ) and the quarter of the year the wedding took place ( jan-feb-mar )

This brought up two mary's,so i went back and searched my great grandad to get the page index number of his wedding ( 535 ) which matched one of the Mary's to my great grandad through marriage.

Have i done the above right?

Also now having found my great grandmother,i obviously need to find out her birth date, but here is my next problem. I know she was 31 in 1911 from the 1911 census.

So in the birth search i've put her name and birth year ( 1880 +/- 1 ) and 7 women have come up on the search with same forename and surname ( all different middle names but that doesn't help because her middle name wasn't on the census if indeed mary isn't actually her middle name in the first place!!! )


so how do i know which one is her?

someone can probably correct me if I'm wrong, but i'm thinking certificates are needed now. Get hold of the marriage certificate for your great-grandad (as you're certain of him), and it should have dates of birth on.

Would it have his wifes D.O.B on though?

1. On free BMD you can click on the page number for a wedding and it shows everyone who got married at the same time - so you don't really need to do two searches like that.

2. You have her place of birth from the census.

3. If that's 7 all in the same location then that's - er - unlucky.  There are various browsing methods you can use to find out, but some of them will cost more money then just getting the wedding certificate and you'd probably end up having to get the wedding certificate anyway.

The wedding certificate will have her fathers name and profession - this should be enough to cross reference with the birth data and the censuses to work out which is the right one.

I weas just presuming, but surely it would have bride and groom's date of birth?

Sorry Jon it came up with 6 different women with birth years either 1879 or 1880 all from different places bot none matching the place of birth on the 1911 cencus!

Stumped now. But on the 1891 census i've found the same woman exact matching age and birthplace as the 1911 census so how comes i can't find her in the birth index's?

Going for a benson!

Look up the locations, the actual place in one and the nearest big place in another for example.

But without a clearcut result on the online indexes and censuses then it does look more and more like you need the wedding certificate.

It contains a lot of data - some of it will help, and the bits that won't can still be interesting.

Pretty sure its her by the census results but can't be 100% yet.

According to the census of 1891 and 1901 her birthplace was Bedworth, Warwickshire but of the 2 in Warwickshire on the birth index's one is Warwick the other is Birmingham!

Where is the best place to get the marriage certificate from? Is there anywhere live i can view the marriage details?

Thanks again mate.

The birth index is where it was registered - it doesn't have to be the nearest. ie that's well within the margin of error you can get.

You get certificates from the General Registry Office - I've never bothered remembering the URL, there's a link to ordering certificates on www. findmypast.com which takes you there.

The best live place to view them is the church they married at - this has really helped me when I knew a large number of family came from the same parish as you can scroll through the church records and pick out all the birth marriages and deaths.

If you find out the relevant church then I can point you where you'd find their records (usually the county archive) - but obviously it's not always so easy to know which church they married at.

And another margin of error you might want to have in the back of your mind in general.

When it comes to age - sometimes people lie

:D

good point - there is a lot of confusion over some great uncles and stuff in my family who lied about their age so they could fight in the wars. Must be incredibly common.

It's surprising how much stuff can get in official documents.

For example, I know someone who's great grandfather put a hyphen between his middle and last names on his wedding certificate - after that the family had a double barreled surname :D

But age happens a lot - as well your example people can do it to hide how young or how old they were when they got married, a lot of the time it's hard to work out the reason.

Lol yeah i hadn't thought of that Jon yeah.

Another oddity i've come across whilst searching for my great grandmother is that i've found her in the census of 1881,1891 and 1901 her age and father match all 3 but she has 3 different people listed as "mother" the 1881 census i'm assuming its her real mother as she is 1 then and her mother is listed as being 31. In the 1891 census she is 11 but the woman listed as her mother is 24! and in the 1901 census she is 21 but her mother agian different woman is listed as 35! Whats going on there i wonder?

A potential gem i have found though is in the 1891 census in that household is a female listed at 75 years old and status as mother,would this be the head of the households mother?

yes

remarriage after the first census I'd assume - I'm not sure if the term was in use generally, but "step" definitely doesn't get used on censuses

3 wives in 30 years the dirty old buggar

You can look between 1881 and 1891 for her mothers death.

From a research point of view it's the least useful certificate to get - but from a more general point of view it can be really interesting.

I'm guessing 2 and 3 are the same person

no mate completely diffent names!

Interesting in what way?

Could be a middle name.

You have a 10 year window each time - you can look for his marriage.

And divorce is very unlikely - so for each remarriage there is very likely to be a death.

If it was something 'juicy' they died from :D

There is some information about location and who reported it for example - but mainly a tragic accident or a horrific murder most horrid would make a great story :D

Bit of scandal would be good!

is this the site for certificates: http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

yep

Trying to order but slight stumbling block is i don't know the full date only that it was march 1903. i put this in but it says it wants dd/mm/yyyy?

Also they were married in the district of foleshill so is there any where i can go to view the marriage details?

ffs - can't believe I have to do some actual work. It's Friday for crying out loud.

:(


Back to this later  :)up

Thanks mate you've been a star, anything i can do for you don't hesitate to ask.

May have asked this before but i'm very tired and alittle confused!!

On a birth certificate does it have the mothers maiden name?

I don't really know what you're looking at there


There's more than one church in this district so unless you had any other reason to believe it's a specific one then the certificate is easier.



yes

On the certificate website,on the bit where you fill in the details of the certificate you want,it asks for date of marriage in dd/mm/yyyy. I only know the month and year ( march 1903 ) so i tried with 00/03/1903 then just 03/1903 then march 1903 but each time it kept returning me to the details of certificate page with a warning in red " the date for the event is a required field " arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggghhhh!!. Think i'll give them a ring on monday.

Another daft question,as i don't know much about this ( can you tell?  ;D ;D ) Can i go to any register office and order a certificate,or do i need to go to the district the event was registered in?

Reason i ask is i also think i need my grandmothers birth certificate because i'm having conflicting reports as to her mothers maiden name and need to clarify.

 - Order Certificates online
 - Order a certificate online now
 - Registration

I'm already registered, can't rememember what that involves - presumably it then puts you back to where existing users go

Tick :Certificate Types - Marriage Certificate (England & Wales)
Tick :Is the General Register Office Index known?  - yes
Year in which the event was registered: fill in
Submit

Deliver Address Details to fill in

Particulars of the person whose certificate is required
Surname and forename of the side you know for sure is true

Reference information from GRO Index
Year     1903
Quarter*      All this information is in the result from the search and is needed, so don't skip it if you don't understand
District name*    
Volume Number*    
Page Number*    

Then despatch and payment options

Does any of that look familiar?

Bung Jon a Nifty and get 10 hours of graft ... you would be daft not to.

I've only ever ordered from the local register office where I knew the events were registered.

I think you can't order at one for an event at another - but haven't tried it so not certain.

Thanks Jon,that has cured the date problem ( as i hadn't ticked the general registry office index known box ) but now its asking for volume number and page number. What are these and where will i find them on ancestry?

I feel a bit guilty i'm not paying him anyway tbh Kev, I didn't expect this level of advice and help and i'm truly humbled.

I'll give my local office a ring on Monday to clarify.

Kev's not the brightest of chaps - he fails to notice that it's £50 for 10 hours work, but unlimited consultancy for free ;D

That's okay, I looked up Foleshill to check there was more than one church in the district, and logged on to GRO.gov to look through the exact order of the pages - the rest has been off the top of my head so hasn't really been that much effort.

Don't you get a result with something like

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915 England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
Name:    Emma Mary Williams
Year of Registration:    1862
Quarter of Registration:    Apr-May-Jun
District:    St Saviour Southwark
County:    London, Surrey
Volume:    1d
Page:    20 (click to see others on page)


on?

Volume, Page - right there

Yeah found that now mate thanks. Its the 1d and page 20 they want isn't it?

Theres a big difference in price now i've ticked that box!

As long as the details match they can find it quickly, if you don't have the district, date, volume and page they have to do their own research for the part you miss out - that's why it costs more if you don't.

In theory could they have got married in Bedworth? reason i ask is Foleshill seems to cover a fairly wide area back then.

I was really into family history about ten years ago. I mainly researched my husband's family on the male side. I used to go to the London archives where you could search the books all day for nothing and order your certificates there and collect them after a few days or have them sent to you.

Through doing this I found my husband's cousin who had being doing research for some time and we arranged to meet at the London Centre. I had no problem in recognising him as he looked just like my father-in-law it was amazing.

It can be expensive buying the certificates, that is why you have to be certain you are getting the right one.  I have not followed up on this for some time but hope to continue in the future.

If anyone into family history is interested, I have a lot of old magazines, going back about ten years. These give a lot of info and if anyone wants them they can have them.  I live in London though so posting may be expensive.

Yes, that's what I looked for when I said it'd be hard to get the church records - because Foleshill area covered a number of parishes.

Had a bit of a result today when i found out that my great grandmother is buried in Bedworth cemetary,probably won't mean much for my search but least i can get some pics for the collection.

no you cant , has to be same district , they have problems with marriages as well because lot of them us parish records to check through ,

the GRO are pretty quick though , about 7 days + they do search to save you cash if certificate is wrong one , we tend to use them for all cert's now

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/foleshill.html

Thanks mate i'll probably order through the website anyway

Mass confusion reigns again this morning i'll try my best to explain without confusing folk!

This morning i visited Bulkington cemetary to view the grave of my great grandparents. The grave was duly found and all dates tie in etc with records i have for birth and death of both of them.

I'm having trouble though with my great grandmother,because i'm not convinced of a few facts.

She was born in 1892 as Ann Argyle and died in 1962 at 70. All this ties up with birth records and death records and the death date on the headstone ( there is no birth date on the headstone ).

Now the problems sort of begin, In 1916 my Great grandfather ( whose details are not in despute ) John W Webb married an 'Annie' Argyle ( my mum has always referred to her as Grandma Annie ) according to the marriage registry. I'm fairly convinced these are one and the same person.


The area that is making me doubt my details is the 1901 census because i cannot accurately find Ann or Annie Argyle at least not to the birth date. Also in Bulkington cemetary are 2 more argyle which my mum tells me are her great grandparents ( parents of Ann Argyle ) but this is also confusing because according to the 1901 census they did indeed have a daughter but her name was mary ann argyle and it has her birth date as about 1896 a full 4 years after my great grandmother was born.

Whats the best way of solving this little issue?

Have you looked for them on the 1911 census to see what details that gives?

Yeah just checked and thats a bit mental too.

Typed in Ann Argyle got 5 matches none exact for birth year ( 1892 ) the Mary Ann Argyle comes up again and again with 1896 as birth year ( same as 1901 )

There was another one ( and its deffo same girl ) in the 1901 census she is listed as Anne Argyle with a birth year of 1894 she is living with her grandfather her grandmother and their children and her father ( Daniel Butlin ) still with me?

In the 1911 census this girl is now Ann Argyle birth date 1893! but again living with Daniel Butlin but this time with Daniel's sister and brother in law( her father i'm assuming because he is listed as BIL to the head and Ann as the niece )


It is definately between these 2 because they are the only 2 Bulkington ones and i would be leaning toward the second girl if it were not for the fact that mary ann1' parents are buried not 50 feet away from my great grandparents.

it gets odderer and odderer.

This comes back to the 20th Century being the hardest part, there is the least amount of information to go on.

This is one where the parish records might be handy, but might involve looking through 6 or 7 years worth of records for all the possible parishes and cross referencing them with the census and GRO records to see where the inconsistent recording came in.

i.e. you might want to leave this line for a while and come back to it later :D

Lol yeah i think i might have to.

Would getting the marriage certificate Between John William Webb and Annie Argyle not clear some of this up?

If it had her parents names on then i'd be a step closer wouldn't i?

oh yeah - an oversight I didn't think of that.

It's possible it might contain something else as well - like her name might be listed as Mary Ann Argyle, or the age might tie up more closely with one of the other records.

just quick look on marriages in 1916 & found this
Marriages Jun 1916
Argyle Annie married  Webb John W in    Nuneaton    6 d   1322   
before sending for any certificates think about what informantion you will get from it , ie fathers first name ,

if you know area , will check register for 1962 , district will help as there is about 30 deaths to check through ,
if you got ancestry.co.uk yourself hover over search and click births/marriages & death & then  England & Wales, BMD Index  - Updated!

it will give age at death but not date of birth until 1970

as for census use soundex on search , it is easy to go wrong but the name is not that common , my mothers surname on some searches we have to about 30 spellings variants and some online searches are better than others and after people could spell then it becomes a lot easier & surnames stay the same

I think i'll order the certificate tomorrow as i've exhausted all other avenues i think and none of my living relatives can remember anything further.

Ok this is probably the most stupid question ever asked on Blonde but here goes!.

Where will i find parish records,either live or online?

And i'm assuming you can't just wander into a church and ask to see records,you'd have to make appointments first?

ancestry has some + as does familysearch.org but you cant totaly trust the information on there

county record office for the distict should have most of them on microfilm + there is some online , check genuki and should give you list of information & where to find it

Genuki? Whats this?

Please be patient with me i'll understand it soon lol

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/WAR/

there is on the register ANN WEBB age 70 Nuneaton ref 9 c 883 in 1962

there is a birth in 1892 which looks right and marriage in sept qtr1888 of Joseph Argyle to Elizabeth Butlin in Nuneaton & looks like your family , you can find this on freebmd.co.uk
not done this but check earlier census for the Butlin , hope this helps

Thanks mate i'll take a look at those sites. The thing thats confusing me though is i've checked the census for Joseph and Elizabeth Argyle and they did indeed have a daughter but her name is listed as Mary Ann Argyle with a birth year of abt 1896 ( which is also listed in . But with the info above its now leaning me heavily to the other Ann Argyle reason being is in the 1911 census Ann is living with what i think is her father Daniel Butlin and Daniels sister Mary Ann Smith nee Butlin.

Also if you do a search of Ann Argyle in the 1911 census with birth year of 1892 it yeilds no searches.

Oh god just realised if Ann Argyle is Daniel Butlin's daughter why is her name not Butlin?

I'm so confused i don't know what my name is or where i live!

Plus there are no birth records in either 1893 or 1894 for an Ann Argyle so the census of 1901 which says birth abt 1894 and the census of 1911 which says birth abt 1893 must be incorrectly filled in no?

After a bit more digging ( not literally ) the Elizabeth Argyle nee Butlin that married Joesph Argyle in 1888 would appear to be the older sister of Daniel Butlin making Elizabath and Joseph Argyle my grandads great aunt and uncle thus ruling out Elizabeth and Joseph's Daughter Mary Ann Argyle ( born if you've been keeping up in 1896 not 1892! ) as my grandads mum.

This would leave the other Ann Argyle daughter of Daniel Butlin as the prime suspect. ;D.

This though still doesn't explain why if Ann is the daughter of Daniel.

1. Why is there no mention of her mother?

2. Why Ann is Argyle and not Butlin?

They weren't married and Argyle is the mothers name, maybe?

With absolutely no sign of the mother I'd guess she either scarpered at some point - or more likely, died.

It's not the only explanation - but it's possible.

Wait I didn't really take this into account.

Might need to draw out a diagram of relations to make sense of it, which I can't do at the moment

Yeah Elizabeth Argyle nee Butlin was born abt 1863 she appears in the census of 1871 as daughter to the head which is Daniel Butlin Senior. In the 1881 census Elizabeth Butlin now 18 is living in Northamptonshire with another family as servant. In 1891 she is now Elizabeth Argyle having married Joseph Argyle in 1888.So she pretty well ties up ok + i know the whereabouts of the grave of Elizabeth and Joseph Argyle because i saw it yesterday in Bulkington cemetary.

However i believe that Daniel Butlin jnr born abt 1868 is the brother of above Elizabeth Butlin because he appears in the 1901 census as son to the head ( the head being Daniel Butlin snr his age and his wifes age all tie up to previous census ).

However this throws up another conundrum:

Daniel Butlin jnr,it appears to me,doesn't appear on any census until 1891 when aged 23/24 when he appears with his mother and father ( Daniel Butlin snr )

Why would he not appear on the census of 1871 and 1881?

On the 1871 census in the same Butlin household there is a David Butlin with an abt birth year of 1868 the same as Daniel jnr ( who doesn't appear ) also on the 1881 census Daniel doesn't appear and neither does David ( in fact neither does any of the family its like they disapeared of the face of the earth! ).  However in 1891 and 1901 the family are back again with Daniel jnr in both but no David!

Could David be Daniel?

If you can look at the actual image of the census you might be able to answer that yourself.

Whoever transcribed it might have misread the name - and quite often when you look at it yourself you can see where they made the mistake.

Wouldn't it be commonplace that even if they weren't married Ann would still have been given her fathers name?

Fairly - but there's no reason to think this might not be an exception.

fwiw I have this hunch there's something I'm missing - but I've got a cold at the moment and can't quite focus properly.

I'm not sure on this, but is it not likely that in those days an umarried mother might have had to declare father as 'unknown' and therefore give the child her name?

Good work Mr Woodfield as ever top man  ;tightend;

In the original transcript of the 1871 it is ( to my eye ) quite clearly Daniel and not David.

Illiterate transcriber clearly!

So that ties another little bit up then and Elizabeth is the sister of Daniel so Elizabeth's daughter Mary Ann Argyle cannot possibly be my grandfathers mother ( please god don't tell me i'm gonna find incest  ;ashamed;.

Just need to clear up this Ann Argyle/Butlin situation now and i'm almost laughing!

You focusing quite well from where i'm standing Jon.

Everyone has been great,i can't thank people enough.

It varies sometimes it says Unknown sometimes they are living as a couple and a marriage follows shortly after - quite often this makes the registration exactly the same as if they were married when the baby was born.

Sometimes the father might acknowledge paternity, but they're not about to get married, and the baby can be registered with the mothers surname, but with the fathers surname as a last middle name.

And sometimes it does just have the fathers name registered but the baby has the mothers name because they're not married.

Varies a lot.

Some tips from my own research.

Children (especially boys) oftern have the mother maiden name as their middle name.
People died a lot more often (if you know what I mean) and the surviving spouse generally remarried a lot quicker than we might do now.
Due to the above, step children are often on the census with the deceased fathers surname.
Children are sometimes found at relations houses on the census (grandparents normally)
Women tend to head back home when pregnant especially with the first child (I found a relative born in Ullesthorpe - Leicestershire, working in Mansfield - Notts, married in Masnfield, first child born back in Ullesthorpe.

Thanks for this Scott.

People should stay in one place and write accurate information on their census forms imo lol

Right after further searching i can't shed anymore light on the Ann Argyle/Daniel Butlin situation. I think its a reasonable shout to think that Ann Argyle is the daughter of Daniel Butlin but i need proof.

I'm going to order Ann Argyle's birth certificate so i can find her mothers name.

I'm also going to order her wedding certificate so i can 1. Match her to my great grandad and 2. so i can be sure Daniel Butlin is her father.

A couple of questions before i do.( Well ok maybe 4! )

1. Does the fact that Ann Argyle was according to birth records born Ann Argyle but married as Annie Argyle mean anything significant?

2. Is ordering the 2 certificates the correct thing to do?

3. Is there anything i've overlooked that i could do before ordering the certificates?

4. Some advice on certificates please as i don't have much knowledge of them:

I've only got the short version of my birth certificate but i'm assuming that if i order one it will hold the full information?

And is the information standard ie mothers and fathers full names if known?

On my marriage certificate there is my fathers name and occupation and my father in laws name and occupation. Is this information timeless ie will a marriage certificate from a marriage over 100 years ago still have the same info?

Sorry for all the questions but i want to get it clear in my mind as to my next step.

No


There is a time issue - the 'safe' way would be to order the one you're more sure of (I'm guessing the wedding certificate) and using that to be more sure that the other one is right.

And as for the rest - details change a bit over time, but generally speaking you pretty much get the same details however far back you go.

Thanks again Jon.

I'm more or less sure that both are correct,Just Ann's parentage that is confusing me a little.

I'll actually need both certificates to confirm her parentage won't i?

Either one 'might' be enough by itself - but it's the time issue again, if you get one and it's 'fairly conclusive' but not entirely -then you'll need to order the other one anyway.

Quicker if you order them both at the same time - just the slight possibility that you won't actually have needed to.

Sorry Jon i don't get what you mean by "time issue"

So the birth certificate would be the best one to get first then because it will have both parents names on,where as the marriage certificate will on have the bride and grooms fathers on no?

The birth certificate is the best one to get first, yes.

The time is just you have to wait around for the certificates to arrive in the post. If they're ordered one after the other then obviously it's twice as long you're waiting for them compared to if you ordered them at the same time.

Right certificates will be ordered in the morning for the Ann Argyle/Daniel Butlin affair.

Moved on to the other side of the family now and had an unexpected stroke of luck. Whilst inputting details of my great uncle i discovered a person with the same person in their tree so i've mailed them 2 heads are better than 1 they say.

Another several questions if i may.

1. Would anyone know ( or at least know how i can find out ) where the burial records are kept for in Windmill Road cemetary in Longford in Coventry?

2. I'm looking for my mum's grandad's family ( Grimley ) they are all buried there but it is a very very large cemetary would any resource be able to tell me roughly in what part they were buried?

Re - cemetary records

I would recommend e-mailing bereavement.services@coventry.gov.uk

Didn't notice this bit before and now i'm a little concerned.

I'm doing my tree on ancestry and i have included all names dob,marriage etc of every living relative including cousins should i not have done this?

Not really no.

I don't know how big a risk it is, but generally an offline version of your tree can have everyone in - but online then it's best to leave out living relatives

Why is this Jon?

What would you advise i do?

As G1BTW alluded to, this information could be used for fraud.

Just go in and delete those relatives from your tree online. I don't think it's a big source for fraudsters to look at, but it is theoretically possible.

would it be ok to leave names but delete all dates etc?

Isn't there a way on ancestry to make my tree private?

if you get Family Tree Maker you can then put it online with a gedcon file from FTM ie genesreunited/ancerstry with all people stated as living and not there first names  , its the way to go realy and ask someone first before listing there first name

lot of people do it genesreunited but you should ask someone first before doing it , dont totaly trust what anyone has done before copying it , a lot on gens/ancestry have mistakes & dont correct them when told they are wrong

check out your local family history society  , they tend to have a lot of information which could help you

Step by step instructions for the idiot please!

Right i think i may have got it!

My tree is on ancestry at the moment.

So should i delete my tree on there,buy family tree maker then do my tree on family maker then up load it onto ancestry using gedcom?

If i put full details of all living relatives on family tree maker and up load it to ancestry will ancestry automatically put all living relatives as just that "living!?

Right i've decided to leave everyone as they are and just make my tree private as according to ancestry it will still show ancestry tips to my tree but anyone who wants to view it needs my permission so all is good.

I've also ordered a birth and marriage certificate for Ann Argyle.Just got to wait for them to come now. Meanwhile i've had a few leads on the other side of my family just checking them out.

I believe there are christening records online dating back to pre 1600 if there are where can i find them?

You probably don't need to worry about that for a bit.

It's the church records, copies usually held in the county archives but sometimes also held in local libraries.

Lol yes walk before running and all that!

I do though need to check out a birth in 1816 in Christchurch,Hampshire where would i find such info?

Think this going to be another tricky one though as i'm pretty sure this woman is my great great great grandmother but she has a different surname to her son. She is listed in the 1891 census as mother to the head ( the head being Thomas Colledge - my great great grandfather ) but her surname is Wareham. How would i go about sorting out the difference in names?

There are the 1881, 1871, 1861, 1851 and 1841 census's you could cross reference them to for a start

Thanks Jon.

I've started by researching Thomas Colledge's marriage because i was un sure of his wife's maiden name, I've found her now with help from other sources but in the wedding indexes Thomas is listed as Thomas Colledge Hughes?

Does this mean he is not a colledge after all but a Hughes?

That could be like I alluded to earlier that his mothers surname was Hughes and fathers surname Colledge, and he was born before they married.

It certainly fits very well into that pattern - but obviously any assumptions have to be proven with actual evidence, because whatever is the most likely explanation - there are always alternative ones.

This is turning into an even bigger saga than the Ann Argyle/Daniel Butlin case.

Will post more in a bit when i've got my head round it!

I think the census or transcribers of the 1891 census ( don't actually know which one is to blame! ) have led me on a very merry dance this afternoon!

The Elizabeth Wareham that is showing in the 1891 census is in fact NOT the mother of Thomas Colledge if someone could check this out i'd be grateful just to prove i'm right.

If you search ( on ancestry ) for Thomas Colledge born abt 1850 in the 1891 census it brings up the page with the volume number and page number and at the bottom there is a list which includes his wife and all the little Colledge's. There is not in that list an Elizabeth Wareham.

If you then search for Elizabeth Wareham on the corresponding page as above there is Elizabeth Wareham her SON her son's wife and all the little Wareham's but no Colledge's.

If however you click on view original document from either the Wareham or Colledge screen it then takes you to exactly the same thing. At the bottom you have the transcribed information and the top is the original transcript. At the bottom it states that Thomas Colledge is the head with all of the clan Colledge present but with also Elizabeth Wareham as mother!

However on the original transcript it looks to me that Elizabeth,who is at the very top of the page, is overspill from the previous page and does in fact live next door.

Also Thomas's mother in previous census is listed as Eliza born abt 1828 not Elizabeth born abt 1816!

Is this a reasonable assumption?

Another puzzling problem.

In the census of 1881 Thomas colledge is married to Rosa Colledge. In the census of 1891 Thomas is now married to Alice Colledge.

I would have thought Rosa had died but there is no record of her death between the years of 1881-1891.

Could there be a divorce?

If so were divorces listed then?

If so where could i find such a list?

Divorces are very very unlikely

It's more likely she died and you can't find the record

That name seems like one which could very easily be lost somewhere due to bad transcribing.

Yeah i think it unlikely too Jon. But don't know how i can confirm her death?

If he remarried, there would also be the record of that marriage.

Had a quick look.

Interesting.

Not helpful, but definitely ...  interesting.

Interesting in the fact that i can't find the death of Rosa?

Or interesting in an other way i've not yet discovered?

The second one

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh  ;)

I've been sitting here for the last hour wondering about this cos unless i'm blind or have made an error ( which is very possible ) between the years of 1881 and 1891
when Rosa appears to vanish,there is no death record and no remarriage records for either Rosa or Thomas.

How about a starter for ten?

They're the not the only two people here, it's weird though - doesn't make sense.

Now i'm even more confused if thats possible!

Are you refering to the 1901 census when there appears to be yet another "wife" for Thomas?

There does appear to be a Daughter also called Rosa in the 1881 census but she the disappears too,is that it?

lol - no.

I haven't looked at them all

I looked for:
1. Death for Rosa
2. ReMarriage for Thomas
3. Marriage for Alice - assuming she married him in Foleshill, there should be a marriage between Thomas Colledge and Alice (whatever her maiden name is) between 1881 and 1891.  That assumption means you could miss something and there might be another way of explaining it - but it does throw up something 'odd'

They're looking at the same records but I found www.freebmd.org.uk easier to use for this than Ancestry

Yeah very odd indeed Jon.You would have thought that there would be a record of either the re marriage of Thomas or the death of Rosa or even a remarriage of Rosa but there is none.

Can't think there is a transcripting error on 2 or even 3 events that could of occured. 1 yes but not more.

The only bit of information ( subject to verification ) that i don't have on Rosa is her death,I have her maiden name ( Lilley ) i have her parents names ( not mothers maiden yet ) I have her birth record and her record of Marriage to Thomas in 1870.

My tree is not directly affected by the extra wives of Thomas as i'm sure that Rosa is Mary's mother but i do need Rosa's death record ( i'm very ocd about such things!!! )

Its a pity that there is no mothers maiden names on birth records in those days because i could have traced the supposed 2nd wife of Thomas.

Another interesting thing is when i put Rosa Colledge's details into my tree yesterday i was then linked to 2 other trees with Rosa on them and both are the same Rosa and both have no death date either despite both trees having all the death information of everyone else in the same generation.

Two things surely must be certain though:

1) She must be dead ( otherwise she'd be 164 years old by now )

2) There must be a record of her death somewhere.

Is it possible that Thomas wasn't actually married to this Alice but just listed as "wife" on the census?

This was the odd thing I found

What does it mean? Does it mean anything?

Marriages Dec 1889

Surname	First name(s)	District	Vol	Page
BUCKINGHAM	George	Foleshill	6 d	864
Colledge	Alice	Foleshill	6 d	864
Ford	Mary Ann	Foleshill	6 d	864
PEEK	Thomas	Foleshill	6 d	864

Just checked those out Jon they can be ruled out.

Alice Colledge is from Bedworth, and may yet prove to be related but she was born in 1865 in Foleshill.
Thomas Peek was born in Warwick in 1869.

These two did indeed get married as your record shows but after checking the 1891 census they are both happily living in Foleshill with baby Peek.

Did find another transcripting error though. In the original document it has Thomas Peek as born in Warwick,which matches his birth. But in the transcription it has his birthplace as foleshill.

Take more care transcribers!

So where do i go from here?

I could i suppose search for Rosa's death after 1891 but if she too re married she'd no longer be a Colledge upon death.

I've also emailed the 2 owners of the trees that also contain Rosa for any leads just awaiting response.

Waiting to see if the owners of the other trees is a good idea.

A big problem here is the number of variations on names you could have here: Rosa, Colledge and even Thomas could be listed with a number of slightly different variants of their names or variant spellings - and that's even before you take into account that he might be Colledge Hughes - or just Hughes (Thomas Hughes - that wouldn't be a good variant to narrow down).

Yeah i know what you mean Jon.

On his wedding index he is listed as Thomas Colledge Hughes the reason for this i think is his mothers name,subject to verification was Eliza Hughes before she married.

And even on one census Thomas and Rosa are down as "Collidge"

In the death searches I've tried Rosa as Lilley,Colledge,College,Coledge,Collidge and Colidge but so far nothing.

Although yet to be confirmed,judging by the fact that the other 2 trees have no death details ( and both are fairly comprehensive trees one goes back to early 1500s in places ),means they are too having these problems,although it could also mean of course that they are being less anal about it as me as Rosa isn't one of their direct descendants.

But i do need this info!

Its fairly logical that she's dead and that she must be buried in the local area somewhere so if i may visit the place that holds Bedworths burial records if i knew where that was lol!

Gonna go back to the death indexes again and see if i've missed anything.

By golly i think i've got it!

Went back to the death Indexes and decided i wouldn't use a surname for rosa. So i just typed in Rosa and year of birth 1844 and death date 1886 +/-5.

And there on the second page is Rosa Colledge Hughes death in Foleshill in 1887.

Guess she must have taken the complete name of Thomas at the wedding?

Sounds good.

Simples.

And lucky that she didn't get listed as Roselie College Huws instead :D

No shit!

Now searching for Thomas marriage to Alice via looking under Hughes instead of Colledge.

More issues.

I've found a Thomas Colledge Hughes that married in derby in 1888. However when you click on view record and then click the page number it comes up with an odd number of people ( 5 ) 3 men and 2 women none of whom are an Alice!

Alice Alice where the Fck is Alice?

There are 102,000 Hughes in the marriage records for the period but surely Thomas Colledge Hughes must be unique?

The records on the page are the records of who got married on that day in that location.

i.e. they will have an even number

So when it shows an odd number it means not every record is transcribed.



He could be listed as Thomas Hughes, Thomas Colledge Hughes, Thomas Colledge, Thomas Collidge, Thomas Collidge Hughes, Thomas College, Thomas College Hughes etc etc etc

So what are my chances of finding out who this Alice is?

Any advice on doing so?

It was easier to find his first marriage index my using Rosa Lilley but i'm now in a chicken and egg!

If the record it's on just hasn't been transcribed then you might as well just wait for them to get round to it - it's not clear cut though, it might be a problem to do with how it's been transcribed.

Either way, then wait and come back to it is a good course.

There really should be the odd line or two in your family tree that you can just work back to the early 19th century without any hassle.

There is if i'm honest but i can't let this go till its sorted its my ocd you see  ;D

I've been back to the other trees that share the same Thomas Colledge and on one of those a second wife for him appears as Mary Alice ( no surname ) born abt 1867 which would tie in with both census of 1891 and 1901. Gonna search the births for possible surnames and then the original marriage indexes on findmypast.

Think i've now cracked the second wife issue as well.

I think his second wife is Mary Alice Harrison because:

There is a Mary Alice Harrison listed as born in 1867 in the birth index ( and i'm sure its Mary Alice because of the other 2 trees that i share Thomas Colledge with ).

There is no record of marriage to Thomas because i could only find his name in the marriage index because as Jon says it hasn't been transcribed yet.

But what i think is the clincher is in the 1901 census Thomas is the head with Mary A as wife and a ten year old girl called Annie Harrison as niece.

More confirmation needed but i think i'm nearly there.

Is it possible that a child showing up on the census as Thomas Colledge could be Tom Colledge on birth index?

Dates match and everything.

I've found my great great grandfather.

According to all census 1851-1901 his year of birth is about 1849.

However the only one i can find on the birth index is born in 1846,can they really be 3 years out here?

As an aside he never lives with his parents his first census entry is 1851 living with his aunt and uncle.

The census information has the date when the census was taken.

i.e. depending on that it might actually only be 2 years out

If you're sure that's him then that would be a good birth certificate to get. Might be the only way to find his parents, then use the 1841 census to find more about them.

Not totally sure it is him.

There are 2 with the same name ( Isaac Kelsey )

Prime suspect is born Dec 1848 in the district of meriden plus he ties up with a death record in 1912.

No2 is born in 3rd Quarter of 1846 in the district of foleshill ( no death record as yet ).

However it is these birth districts that are confusing me a little.

Confusing me more however is that in all the census only 1 Isaac comes up the same one all the time with a birth year of abt 1849 in Fillongley.

No1 is closer in birth to the census ( only a month out ) but the district is wrong ( unless Meriden is part of Foleshill )

No2 is more accurate in district but nearly 3 years out on birth.

I checked the death records in case one of them died as an infant but there is nothing there to suggest they did.

Don't really want to get wrong certificates.

Any thoughts?

Find Meriden

What do you mean find Meriden?

Don't leave questions unanswered.

Find it out.

My guess is ( and its a fairly educated one ) that all census state place of birth in Fillongley. Now Meriden is geographically closer to Fillongley than Foleshill is so stands to reason that people born in fillongley get registered in Meriden.

Well seems logical to me anyway.

Will check tomorrow if Meriden has a register office and if so will ring them.

Does the above sound plausible?

Morning all.

Is it possible that people could be missed off a census?

Reason i ask is i'm missing an entire family from the 1881 census. They appear in every other one but seem to have vanished in 1881.

Yes they can.

If people were travelling from one place to another on the night of the census they can be easily missed out, it's also possible that they were on some records which got damaged so that there was never a chance to transcribe them.

Thanks Jon that seems like a reasonable explanation as to why i can't find them then.

Do ancestry and findmypast have birth records pre 1837?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Register_Office (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Register_Office)

Ancestry has some parish records, and freebmd.org.uk has an offshoot which has some and sometimes people have transcribed specific parishes and put them online.

But County Archives and local libraries are the more likely source.

I think i maybe stupid! or possibly suffering brain fade this morning.

I'm looking to trace a woman called Mary Lilley born abt 1824 in Measham, Derbyshire but don't know where to find the source that may have this information?

http://www.leics.gov.uk/index/community/recordoffice.htm

Read the different pages - useful stuff in general to know if you haven't looked in any county archives before.

Thanks Jon.

Had a quick read through and to be honest i don't think i'm ever going to get it,all looks like gobbledygook to me.

Why can i not understand it can't be difficult.

Trying to understand this!

Would i have to go to the office to find out the records i need?

Can't see any way of checking on the local authority website.

You have to go and visit

About the record office
http://www.leics.gov.uk/index/community/recordoffice/recordoffice_about.htm

Where it is
http://www.leics.gov.uk/index/community/recordoffice/recordoffice_about/map_recordoffice.htm

Admission and tickets
http://www.leics.gov.uk/index/community/recordoffice/recordoffice_about/recordoffice_admission.htm

Resources
http://www.leics.gov.uk/index/community/recordoffice/recordoffice_resources.htm

Church Registers
http://www.leics.gov.uk/index/community/recordoffice/recordoffice_resources/record_office_church_registers_list.htm

Thanks Jon for being patient!

Think i'm starting to get it now.

Wouldn't i have to go to Derbyshire record office though about Measham?

Church Registers
http://www.leics.gov.uk/index/community/recordoffice/recordoffice_resources/record_office_church_registers_list.htm

county borders change over time

Ok thanks mate.

More stupid questions to follow no doubt.

How far do people generally take these trees,i'm talking about outwards not back?

Depends on what they think is interesting.

Haven't seen that many of other people's to really know any kind of general average.

Blimey o Riley.

Just done a to do list on everyone i've got on my tree so far and its 3 A4 pages already!

Best crack on then!

Does a married woman's death certificate have her maiden name on?

Got the marriage and birth certificate for my great grandmother ( ann argyle ) this morning. Turns out that her parents are the ones who i thought weren't her parents!

More checking and re checking!

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php

great forum for newbies :) so much useful info and tips :)

Excellent work sir thankyou.