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With the first couple of days testing complete do you think the results have any bearing on what will happen at the start of the season? Massa has topped the times on both of the days so far, Hamilton, Schumacher and Rosberg has been on the pace as well. Merecede's have performed quite well, Rosberg has been faster than Schumacher so far but Michael has a full days testing today, as do Alonso and Button. Red Bull don't start testing until next week.

Who do you think will be fighting for the championship this year? I still believe McLaren are going to be the team to beat, although I am interested to see how Red Bull will perform next week.

Expecting Alonso to top the times in testing today.
In the betting Betfair have Hamilton at 9/2 which seems quite good, although 9/1 on Massa is also tempting. Alonso is favourite according to Betfair at 4/1. Most other sites have Hamilton as the favourite. Vettel might be good value at 7/1.

Edit @ 11:30 - Alonso quick and money going on him on Betfair he has come in from 5.0 this morning down to 4.7 and money still going on.

Edit @ 12:30 - Alonso now at 4.5 has been as low as 4.3 this hour. Should probably lay him now as I believe you will get better odds on him later today as these current odds are no better than the bookies are offering.

Only 10 days to go to the new F1 season and it looks like being the most interesting championship for years. Certainly at the start anyway until someone shows some dominance.

What are everybody's thoughts on this season?

Can Schumacher do anything special with his old team principal Brawn? Surely they're tough to back against?

Hamilton vs Button will be interesting for the first few races. Will one of them be significantly quicker or will they just take points off each other leaving another driver a clear run at the championship?

Latest testing is leaning towards McLaren, BMW Sauber and Renault but how long will this last? Mercedes have a new upgrade which will ready for the first race so they can't be ruled out.

Latest betting has Alonso favourite at around 3.5 and I'd struggle to go against the man I personally consider the best driver in the championship. At those odds though I think he's unbackable this early.

Vettel @ 5.5
Hamilton @ 6
Schumacher @ 7
Button as high as 15

Non of these look particularly good value to me as the start of the seaon will be so close. Button has to be better value than Hamilton. I can't see them being that far apart and Button's smooth driving style may pay dividends now that fuel stops aren't allowed.

For a good long shot I quite fancy Nico Rosberg @ around 29. If the Mercedes upgrade is as good as Brawn is suggesting he could be challenging at the front which could see these odds drop significantly after the first couple of races.

Same car as Schumacher and a fellow German who Schumacher may take under his wing and try to push. With Brawn and Schumacher behind him the guy will do much better than his odds suggest.

So although I think Alonso is rightly the favourite my picks for this season are Button and Rosberg. Both are well worth an e/w at 1/5 odds for top 3.

There will be plenty of betting to be had this season and I may ressurect my F1 gambling career which has been dormant since 2005 when the value finally disappeared. This was the Alonso / Renault year. 16's for Alonso and 12's for Renault pre season. Toasty.

Plenty of match betting to be had and with fuel stops gone there may be some value to be found at each race. The bookies aren't as stupid as they were in '05 so it could be tough to find. That year was like buying money. If I get the buzz back I'll post any of my selections up here. If the bookies just go ridic tight like last year I'll get bored looking after Bahrain.

I want a F1 PS3 game, whats the latest one?

Moody told me to back Nico Huldenburg is it?

My money would be on Hamilton now that Raikkonen is not in F1 lol...

Back him to do what?

And I think it's Hulkenberg is it?

for the drivers championship, lol

Latest testing, indeed all winter testing, has Ferrari and Red Bull slightly ahead of McLaren

For Ferrari this is not surprising as they have been working on this car since last June when they gave up on 2009

Not sure where you get Mercedes and Renault as being leading Winter testing. Renault had one quick test but are plagued by balance and grip problems. Mercedes not quite ready to win yet, according to Schumacher

Williams meant to have a corking engine, and likely to be best of the rest outside the big four teams

Of the new teams Lotus and Virgin about 5 seconds a lap off the pace, and with big reliability problems. Still got to start somewhere

All the signs are with races run on full tanks, and most on one pit stop, tyre wear and qualifying one lap speed will be key. 

Believe Sauber have tested well. May be worth taking an early price to trade

The season is getting off to a good start, USF1 has laid off it's staff and will not compete in the 2010 season and Campos will not be testing their car before the first GP.

At least that's 2 of the mobile chicanes out of the way.

I'm really having problems trying to predict anything this year - I believe McLaren are stronger than they looked in testing and agree that Button will be closer to Hamilton than a lot of people think but I think Hamilton will win the Mclaren battle.

Last season betting in running on Betfair was not too bad. I can't see anything on there that I see as value at the moment. Button is probably the best value but I can't honestly see him winning it.

Anybody think there is any value in Webber @ 19.5?

I think Vettel is a class above Webber and in a "luck evens out" 16 race contest against his teammate will win it

As such while 19.5 looks attractive, I'd rather be on Vettel at shorter.


Would like to have Alonso over Massa if a match bet existed, too

I'd like it at 10/11 the pair but the chances of that are miniscule.

Pretty sure this will be priced accordingly with Alonso the clear favourite.

We'll get to see just how good Alonso is this year against a quality team mate on equal footing.

The only team mate who's beaten him was Hamilton and that was only because he couldn't be arsed and hated life at McLaren. Alonso will win 2/3 of the HU against Massa and probably more so in quallifying.

Bold statement I know but I'll stick by it.

Great reprise of Schumacher's career by the Beeb today. So basically, they think he's a big fucking cheat then?   rotflmfao

are they wrong?

Not imo no, just amazed they had Becker fronting it, thought 'oh here we go', and then they actualy proceded to rip him to bits.

I was surprised and delighted in equal measures  ;applause;

Well on Betfair I have

Alonso to win @ 4.4 - I think he will run better than Vettel late in the race. Bit dissapointed he is behind Massa though.

Massa to lead at the end of lap one @ 9.2

Seems reasonably good value. He only needs to be leading at the end of lap one, one time in nine for this to make a profit.

I have also layed all of the following to finish:-

Alonso @ 1.14
Hamilton @ 1.16
Vettel @ 1.18
Shumacher @ 1.17
Button @ 1.17
Rosberg @ 1.14

So basically I make a very small profit if one of them fails to finish plus more if more than one drops out. Will also be looking for good bets in running.

Got away with one there. Goods start for Ferrari but Red Bull look really good. I think Vettel would have held on if not for his engine breaking. Will be checking out Webbers odds before the start of the next one in two weeks time. Vettel will be second favourite to win it but as Webber was not too far behind him in a lot of races last season you might get some value i him.

Is it just me or have they made F1 really boring by cutting out refuelling this season ?

Your right Ralph this was the biggest anti climax to the start of a season I can remember.


Boring Boring Boring.

Good Luck to BMW Sauber I hope that Ferrari Engine works well.   

Regards

M

I have to agree with this

The latest regulations mean the drivers spend most of the race saving their tyres and unable to push. Against this, lack of traction control should make it a truer driving test but only if the tyres actually degrade a bit!


The only regulation really required is something to restrict aerodynamics on the cars. As it is a driver can close to within a second of the car in front and then stands no chance of wheel to wheel racing (asssuming equal power) as the dirty air makes it impossible


Still looks like a great season to me because of the characters involved, but the powers that be certainly don't help the spectacle

I am wondering if tyre wear might come into play and help make some of the races more exciting. It was quite good until Vettel had the problem and I think Alonso probably would have got past him. Just going by that race Red Bull look faster at the start (they can go lighter) but Ferrari seemed to be quicker on the harder tyres so will catch up towards the end. There could yet be some hope for a competitive season with some great action on the track.

Hopefully it rains every race. Only way i can see it getting interest.

What was the reason for cutting out re-fueling?

the teams can't afford the fuel, too expensive.  that or global warming.

Encourages overtaking because you can't just wait and do it via the pits.

Faster cars could just wait until someone refueled then do 2 quick laps and pass them without having to do any work. Now they have to be fast enough on track to actually overtake them.

Unfortunately they can't because of what Tighty has said above.

Should be interesting at Monaco and Hungary where you just can't pass no matter what.

Also it should make qualifying more interesting because you know that all the cars are on a full fuel load. Unfortunately it makes the race less interesting because you know whoever is on pole is going to blitz the race. With refueling allowed at least you could guess that someone was maybe heavy or light which could mean the guy on pole had no chance of actually winning.

On an environmental note it encourages fuel efficiency. As we saw at Bahrain the Red Bull car can start with 10k less fuel because it's efficient. 10k is equivalent to about 0.4 s per lap which enabled the one with a good driver in it to do really well.

That's actually not too far from one of the reasons. Obviously the fuel cost isn't an issue but transporting 12 refueling rigs (1 per team) + a spare refueling rig for every team isn't exactly cheap.

Also the FIA shouldered responsibility for the refueling rigs to ensure that they were all the same but all the costs were passed on to the teams.

Teams need to make cut backs. The sport needs to make cut backs. Ban refueling and save millions. Simple.

They claim it's to improve the racing but surely that can't be the reason because as we saw in Bahrain it clearly doesn't.

they might as well just award the points based on qualifying and give everyone the sunday off

Did I say interesting? I meant to say something entirely different ;)

Yeah these races could be really bad. Even tyre wear won't be an issue because you can hold people up and save them for as long as you need to.

You may even find teams short fuelling to gain extra tenths in qualifying because they know they haven't actually got to race on Sunday.

Decent race today. Quite a lot of overtaking and it was incident filled. Nice result for Jenson too.

They're always better when it rains,should have every race up my way imo :)

Great race, Great tactics by Jenson

Another good race in China and again a good move by Jenson was the decider.

I think to make F1 as interesting as possible they need to introduce sprinklers that go off at random intervals soaking the track for 10 minutes. Rain seems to work wonders.

I see full tilt are sponsoring the virgin car. Wonder if Phil, Patrick and Gus will be on the grid next week in Monaco.

Interesting ending to the Moncao GP today for Alonso and Schumacher. I don't think Schumacher did anything wrong from the info they were given but found it funny that Hill was one of the race stewards and got to decide his fate.
He'll probably win his appeal though.

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Well its good to see he has his brakes on - not sure there is much resistance in the air though.

Shame his brakes weren't on half a second earlier.

Those cars can take punishment though looked like it should have been in peices but pretty much held together.

incred from webber. that'll teach the team to screw with him

Good drive for sure, but he has the fastest car by quite some way. I think Vettel would have won the race fairly comfortably if not for the first corner incident. At the moment it all seems to be moving towards the McLaren drivers. Long way to go.

The front wing decision was strange though. I could have understood it if Vettel was miles ahead of Webber but he was only 12 points in front.

I wasn't talking about his drive, that was just standard. I posted straight after he forced vettel off at the first, abs quality

The 12 points thing is just an excuse, its because they want someone who came from the redbull drivers program to win the title

Not normally a formula 1 fan but I've been following this season closely. Probs because of the availability on the excellent bbc iplayer.

Loving it so far, so many narratives to follow, so many talking points.

Found myself supporting Mclaren, and detesting Red Bull. It's more of an underdog thing than a GB thing, as obv there's strong GB elements in both teams. Just love seeing the 'fastest car' getting gubbed.

By the same underdog token, I slightly favour Button over Hamilton (racist ban for me maybe) tho like to see them both do well.

I don't like Mercedes but wouldn't mind if Schumacher won a race somehow.
I don't like Ferrari but find Alonso's downswong far funnier than Massa.

Hate Vettel and Webber equally, though their rivalry is absolutrly fantastic to follow.

What do people feel about rule changes and such to promote overtaking? I've no complaints but understand the criticism that on the face of things it looks like you need crashes/safety cars or crazy weather to get an interesting race.

Taking this last Grand Prix and Button's drive as an example, the first half of the race great TV and you didn't know what was going to happen, taking all those places in the first lap, the tires, the yrack temperature, the pit stops timing, the safety car, Alonso getting shat on etc.
 The second half by contrast seemed a complete formality. A little bit of tension will he/won't he be able to challenge Rosberg for 3rd place but then news comes through that he has to conserve fuel, at the same time the gap between Webber and Hamilton is such that it's just a case of the top 4 cars driving home safely.

I'd say that's probably typical of what I've seen this season, there being more going on at the start of the race than at the end. (A few notable exceptions, the Red Bull collision a couple of races back then the Mclarens sparring for 1st was incred)

I'm still loving it, like I say no real complaints, but it's a wierd thing in a race that takes some getting used to. I don't see many 5k or 10k athletics races where the first half is the must see TV. Has this always been the case with F1? Is it really crying out for the changes some are insisting upon?
 

I'm just a patzer but I reckon that being able to refuel in race would bung an extra dynamic in there to mess things up a bit and make it possible for drivers to run their engines as liberally as they like in the middle part of the race if the situation meritted it. None of this econo drive nonsense.

What was the rationale behind stopping the mid race refueling anyway? Was it like a safety thing? 

Don't like this make the cars a bit shitter downforce wise to promote overtaking. Makes as much sense as having a rule that you're only allowed 6 guys to do a pitstop and 2 of them have got to be temps with learning difficulties. If there's safety restrictions on the manafacture of the car then fair enough, but otherwise it should be about making the fastest car possible no?

tank

the issues surrounding overtaking come in three parts


- the aerodynamic grip the cars have

- the mechanical grip the cars have

- the tracks


taking each in turn

Technology has meant that modern F1 cars create awesome downforce and are very difficult to follow closely without getting caught in very "dirty" air. New innovations such as "F-Ducts" and "Blown diffusers" exacerbate this.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. What technology you see in F1 often finds its way onto road cars in due course but purely looking at F1 the effect can often be that races become processional. Diehard F1 fans would like to see less aero grip (can be achieved by outlawing the aero devices or lowering front/back wing sizes"

In terms of Mech grip we are talking tyres. There is only one manufacturer in F1 so differential tyre performance is tougher to achieve

Tracks, a lot of the newer tracks (esp those designed by Tilke) do not lend themseleves to overtaking. Often for cost and safety reasons


Now all that having been said...create the right circumstances ie changeable weather, poor tyre performance (Canada a month ago) or one of the classic tracks (Silverstone, Spa, Monza, Montreal) and you can still get great racing but on a single weather day with no tyre issues and a new track and often overtaking becomes very difficult. With strategy being taken out of the equation a lot as well (every one starts on full tanks) then a procession is possible

Despite all this, 2010 has been a great season to date. Hamilton is a charger, Button more cerebral. The Red Bull battle is fascinating. Plenty of good races.

It's perhaps a forlorn hope to return to Mansell versus Piquet or Prost versus Senna, where none of the aero grip factors were really present, but F1 is currently better than it has been for 5-10 years IMO..a mixture of the characters, the sub-plots and just random luck of racing conditions so far this season

 

Given total freedom to do what they want the cars would probably be doing 300mph along the straights and 100mph round hairpins.

Every year the F1A introduces measures to slow the cars down a bit.

In the Mansell era they were 3.5L turbo charged monsters with ridiculously wide tyres. The cars were kicking out around 1000hp and the tyres were what kept them stuck to the tarmac.

Now they drive 2.5L normally aspirated cars but with technology advances they still deliver similar power. The tyres are much narrower but advances in aerodynamics mean they go faster round corners than ever before.

So yes the restrictions are about safety. Left to their own devices the cars would be too fast and the chances of surviving a crash would be significantly reduced.

There are many other reasons such as budget control and allowing new teams to enter  F1. New teams wouldn't have a chance if there were no restrictions put on existing teams. They'd just throw their seemingly limitless budget at making a car so fast that nobody else could get near it. Even now with budget caps, no testing, no spare car etc. it's still impossible for anybody to get near the top 4 or 5 teams. Imagine how that would be without the restrictions?

As far as fualling goes Tank I think it's mainly down to budget cuts. Transporting 2 fuelling rigs per team between 20 races was obviously very expensive. Scrap refuelling and you don't need the refuelling rigs. simple.

It's a shame they don't allow refuelling any more. That was always one of the things that kept a race alive. You never really knew if someone was doing 2, 3 or even 4 fuel stops before it actually happened so there was always a chance of positions changing at any stage of the race.

Some teams would opt for more fuel stops because it meant carrying a lighter fuel load. 10kgs of fuel = 0.4 s per lap which is huge in F1. A car uses approx 120kg of fuel in a race. Approx 2kg per lap at somewhere like Silverstone.

Start car A with 120kg of fuel and car B with 20kg of fuel. car B will be 4 s per lap quicker. However in 10 laps it will have to stop for more fuel. It will be 40s ahead so if it takes 35s to refuel then the net gain is to do more stops. Some tracks however it may take longer or shorter to get through the pits meaning you have to work out how best to fuel your car.

That over simplifies it but you can see roughly where it goes. Add in to that putting new tyres on for an extra few 10ths per lap and also reduced tyre wear with a lighter car and you can start to see where the correct strategy for each track is worth more time that adding a few extra aero parts for the odd hundredth of a second.

Now they've stopped refuelling the strategy is far less critical. You have one compulsory stop to change tyres as you have to run 2 different types. Everyone has to do this one stop though so barring incidents everyone is on the same startegy albeit some will start on the slower tyres and some on the quicker.

Strategy now is more about picking the right time to stop to allow your car to filter in to a nice clear piece of track letting the driver put in a few quick laps unimpeded by anyone else.

cheers there

farce

Specifically broke the rules there surely, clear as day on the radio instructions?

referee

Clear as day to fans, clear as mud to the FIA and Lawyers.

No punishment due to the waters being muddied.

Team orders should be allowed in F1. NOT because I agree with them, but only because (obvious from this incident) they cannot be prevented.

You have a good point


I'd wet the track at random intervals, allow refuelling, unlimited tyres and randomly punish Alonso whenever he whinges.


I perhaps have less of a good point lol

pah, total naf. cost me £380 quid.

Fortunately laid for a decent profit at 1.5 as i thought they might do that. 18/1 was a crazy price on massa i thought.

Was on massa@25s and alonso@4s, massa wlda been much the better result for me.

Such a bad taste in the mouth after that display there, what made me laugh was the way they tried to deny it even though it's clear as day what went on.

I'd fine them, dock them points and even award the race to vettel, that wld teach them.

No doubt the stewards will do nothing.

Grid penalty next race would probably be a proportionate response.

Given that it was a team decision, I think the most sensible response would be, either; loss of Constructor points for Ferrari or 10 place grid penalties for both drivers in Hungary.

They're not going to be kicked out, but I think the above would be fair.

As much as I detest Alonso, I have to admit that the Ferrari was the class of the field today, sadly Alonso will never match that level of class,

100k fine

Which is peanuts really in the scheme of things!
Defo think the grid penalty should have been given also and warning about future

question about fines

Does the fine come out of the teams develpoment budget for the next year?
So if fined 100k they'd have 100k less to spend on the car? 

As there is no budget cap, then is essence yes as their development budget is unlimited (limited to what they can get out of Fiat and from sponsorship)

Given that it costs in excess of a few million dollars to re-engineer a front wing alone then $100k isn't really going to dent their P&L.

They are also being referred to the WMSC (World Motor Sport Council) that famously fined McLaren $50m for Industrial Espionage so this story may yet run and run. (Or it will just prove that FIA stands for Ferrari International Assistance lol).

No, just out of Owner coffers. For Ferrari its a drop in the ocean given the team owners


the matter is being referred to the Motorsports council for September  though. Would expect some form of retrospective action then, though of course the history is of fudging on this issue


I was surprised how blatant Ferrari were. Use a real cryptic code, just don't say it straight!

Farce - it's a team sport, team orders should be allowed.

Hint to Red Bull, McLaren and others - if you don't want another team to stitch up the 1-2 order be more good at making your cars go round the track.

whether they should or shouldn't be allowed is a matter of opinion and isn't relevant here

that they're not currently allowed is a matter of fact

yes but Rule 39.1 they're not. Immaterial whether it should be

As it is, there is a clear breach, and a result altering penalty is pretty clear IMO. However the stewards passed the hot potato on and by the time lawyers get involved it will be fudged.

Yeah - I meant that the farce was that orders weren't allowed, not that the punishment was wrong.

Good Post

Team orders can't be stopped. Ferrari just made it to obvious today, they could easily make it look like Massa made a mistake and nothing can be done.

Just watched this.

Smedley's interview was awesome.

"I was pushing him"

"I said sorry because he lost the position"

The constant swerves of the truth really made me cringe.

(http://sniffpetrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/VettelShipping1.jpg)

Another cop out of a decision from the FIA..No further punishment for team orders from Ferrari in Germany.

Absolutely pathetic.

Haven't read anything about it yet but assuming this is correct it's ridiculous.

FIA had a great chance here to show some balls similar to when they muffed McLaren for cheating and they blew it.

FYP.

lol @ not pitting when your car's on fire

and then putting the fire out yourself at the finish line

did you have a bag on Alonso?