blonde poker forum

Simple-ish one to refresh the memory of all.  Don't stove this or its pretty pointless.

Example:

Blinds = 300/600

Payouts are 175/75/0

Button  = 1050
SB (us) = 1950
BB        = 4500


Button shoves.  He has shoved in a previous level 200/400 against us with 23, we had Jacks and held so assume his range really is ATC, he doesn't seem particularly compotent to understand he has no fold equity.

What is the bottom of our range to iso-shove over his 1050 shove, assuming its only another 1350 for the BB to call both of us.

Thoughts please all.  

This

Pretty tight to get involved in this spot no?

I had 3 similar spots/situations last night Matt.  Not after advice on a particular hand, just wondering what/how people assess their re-shoving range here when you have 30 seconds to make a decision rather than run it through equity calculators.

Are we allowed to know payouts?

reshoving is no different to calling in this spot, as you cant pass if you call and the BB jams

as for range

55+
A2s+
A8o+
KQ
KQs

off the top of my head

Its massively different if you can get the BB to fold though by re-shoving...

I wouldn't say massively different tbh. The extra 600 isn't going to change the BB's calling range a hell of a lot unless he thinkd we're flatting to check down.

Whatever happens if you both call neither of you goes away on any board.

its not different in the slightest! I cant even begin to think of a range that he would call the flat but not the shove given the price. And no-one is folding any flop bet if you flat and he does behind.

what extra 600?

What I mean is it makes a massive difference to us if we can make the BB fold.

The difference between calling/shoving is nothing, I agree.

I also think you'd be surprised how many BB's here would call the extra 450 if the SB flats, but would fold when the SB shoves for 1350 more.

Yeah mis-read OP. Make it 900 for cash.

The 300 does make a difference especially if BB thinks we may call to check down.

It's 450 for BB to call so he's almost definitely doing that in the hope of a check down.

If we shove and BB calls and loses he may find himself in a bad spot so we can defo shove to isolate.

BB's range to call our flat is pretty much atc but to call our shove he needs something a bit more playable.

To be honest having looked a bit more carefully at the spot I really don't know what our iso shove range should be.

Good question.

ok, just wanted to make sure I wasn't misreading

the differenced between calling and reshoving is pretty big in that the bb has to call either 450 or 1350. plus if we call we give him the reshove option which he doesn't have if we shove

Do we even want the bb to pass unless we're very strong and very likely to knock out the short stack?

Yes but if he is a reg then all he is bothered about is cashing, firstly.

Given that in any scenario he is left with a min of 2k, once you commit your chips I dont think he is folding much of his calling range.

Buttons range should be any high card, all suited connectors and above (ie prob top 65-70% of his range) - i havent got stove here.

If Sb folds - bb is calling ATC

if sb commits - then bb should really be  committing too, with anything that beats the buttons  range (so basically anything except bottom 25-30% of his range).

HOWEVER

I can see a good arguement for folding given that he is left with 3900 (3600 once he pays the sb blind) and will technically still be the chip daddy or equivalent  depending upon who wins if the other two get it in

I am more likely to call than fodl thou

I don't like this. without getting into specific ranges his calling range if we flat should be atc or very close to it. his calling range if we shove is nowhere near atc

But surely we're never calling though?

We either like our hand and its 'in' our isolating range, or we fold and let the BB call and hopefully win.

With the payouts being 175/75/0 its never in our interest to call here is it?

Am I levelling myself or should we invite BB along for the ride and play simple to make the top 2?

that statement refferred to me being the BB

Actually not even then I don't think, as we'll be strong enough to play it three ways and with a sidepot. My guess is that in most situations like this, getting the bb to fold is a bad thing, so you don't want to be isolating at all.

If you think the bb will fold if you shove, then I think you should probably call. The BB is not usually likely to bet into a dry sidepot post-flop unless he thinks he's got the button beat, so unless he has some sort of personal vendetta against you you're very rarely going to fold the winner post-flop and see the button win the hand.

The worst thing that can happen here - isn't it? - is that you shove and make the bb fold a hand that would have beaten the button, who beats you and leaves you crippled.

I think your range to play this hand at all should be pretty wide - 50%+? And then implicit collusion FTW, or at least the cash.

I think I need to look as this aspect, flatting to invite the BB rarely crosses my mind.

I'm still not fully convinced, but it is food for thought, thanks...