STT Iso-Shove Range

[outragous76]

Yes but if he is a reg then all he is bothered about is cashing, firstly.

Given that in any scenario he is left with a min of 2k, once you commit your chips I dont think he is folding much of his calling range.

Buttons range should be any high card, all suited connectors and above (ie prob top 65-70% of his range) - i havent got stove here.

If Sb folds - bb is calling ATC

if sb commits - then bb should really be  committing too, with anything that beats the buttons  range (so basically anything except bottom 25-30% of his range).

HOWEVER

I can see a good arguement for folding given that he is left with 3900 (3600 once he pays the sb blind) and will technically still be the chip daddy or equivalent  depending upon who wins if the other two get it in

I am more likely to call than fodl thou

[gatso]

Given that in any scenario he is left with a min of 2k, once you commit your chips I dont think he is folding much of his calling range.

I don't like this. without getting into specific ranges his calling range if we flat should be atc or very close to it. his calling range if we shove is nowhere near atc

[TheChipPrince]

I am more likely to call than fold though

But surely we're never calling though?

We either like our hand and its 'in' our isolating range, or we fold and let the BB call and hopefully win.

With the payouts being 175/75/0 its never in our interest to call here is it?

Am I levelling myself or should we invite BB along for the ride and play simple to make the top 2?

[outragous76]

I am more likely to call than fold though

But surely we're never calling though?

We either like our hand and its 'in' our isolating range, or we fold and let the BB call and hopefully win.

With the payouts being 175/75/0 its never in our interest to call here is it?

Am I levelling myself or should we invite BB along for the ride and play simple to make the top 2?

that statement refferred to me being the BB

[Moskvich]

I am more likely to call than fold though

But surely we're never calling though?

We either like our hand and its 'in' our isolating range, or we fold and let the BB call and hopefully win.

With the payouts being 175/75/0 its never in our interest to call here is it?

Am I levelling myself or should we invite BB along for the ride and play simple to make the top 2?

Do we even want the bb to pass unless we're very strong and very likely to knock out the short stack?

Actually not even then I don't think, as we'll be strong enough to play it three ways and with a sidepot. My guess is that in most situations like this, getting the bb to fold is a bad thing, so you don't want to be isolating at all.

If you think the bb will fold if you shove, then I think you should probably call. The BB is not usually likely to bet into a dry sidepot post-flop unless he thinks he's got the button beat, so unless he has some sort of personal vendetta against you you're very rarely going to fold the winner post-flop and see the button win the hand.

The worst thing that can happen here - isn't it? - is that you shove and make the bb fold a hand that would have beaten the button, who beats you and leaves you crippled.

I think your range to play this hand at all should be pretty wide - 50%+? And then implicit collusion FTW, or at least the cash.

[TheChipPrince]

I am more likely to call than fold though

But surely we're never calling though?

We either like our hand and its 'in' our isolating range, or we fold and let the BB call and hopefully win.

With the payouts being 175/75/0 its never in our interest to call here is it?

Am I levelling myself or should we invite BB along for the ride and play simple to make the top 2?

Do we even want the bb to pass unless we're very strong and very likely to knock out the short stack?

Actually not even then I don't think, as we'll be strong enough to play it three ways and with a sidepot. My guess is that in most situations like this, getting the bb to fold is a bad thing, so you don't want to be isolating at all.

If you think the bb will fold if you shove, then I think you should probably call. The BB is not usually likely to bet into a dry sidepot post-flop unless he thinks he's got the button beat, so unless he has some sort of personal vendetta against you you're very rarely going to fold the winner post-flop and see the button win the hand.

The worst thing that can happen here - isn't it? - is that you shove and make the bb fold a hand that would have beaten the button, who beats you and leaves you crippled.

I think your range to play this hand at all should be pretty wide - 50%+? And then implicit collusion FTW, or at least the cash.

I think I need to look as this aspect, flatting to invite the BB rarely crosses my mind.

I'm still not fully convinced, but it is food for thought, thanks...