blonde poker forum

Played recently in my local casino where the following happens :

5 way multi limped pot.

After betting on the flop there is the big blind and myself in late position left

After river card is dealt big blind announces all in

I look at my cards which were in full view in front of my chips and begin to think.

Before i make any action the big blind throws his cards over the action line face down and hitting the small blinds mucked cards in the process.

I assert that his cards are now dead and make a claim for the entire pot , to which the big blind says he thought i passed.

I call over a member of staff who doesn't know the ruling , neither does his colleague so i call over the cardroom supervisor.

After explaining the situation he decides to ask the small blind what 2 cards he had , then the big blind so that they could be retrieved from the muck.

Once retrieved action was put on me to call or fold.I elected after a clock was put on me to call thinking any 2 wins the pot.The supervisor said if i can't beat his hand it would be awarded to the big blind which he did.

Had the big blind not mucked his hand i would have passed to his all in , however in this instance i called with king high on the principle any 2 were good enough.

I exited the game and stated i was not happy.

Was it a bad ruling , if so would it be reasonable for me to ask the casino for my buy in and one rebuy back?


In fairness the guy in charge may not have an official supervisory role , the supervisor was not on duty at the time.
Also it was self deal.

It's a bad ruling mate,,, the cards are dead imo but i wouldn't bother wasting time asking for any money back as that is very unlikely mate...

Yeah his hand is dead but I don't think there's too much for you to complain about. And lol @ tilt calling with king high out of principal.

indeed sounds life something you would do lol...

ruling>>>>>>>>>>>call

wp

His cards are definately dead so you win the pot and TBO if your playing in a casino where there wasnt a TD that knew the correct ruling id be asking for my juice back

hmmm,

1) Player A is all in on the river
2) You do not instant fold with K high
3) Player A mucks cards in error.
4) The cards are recoverable, albeit with assistance of the SB naming his cards.
5) You try to take advantage by exploiting the error
6) You then make a call figuring any two are good - WTF?
7) You object that you do not win with K high.

Class play mate

No brainer, your decision to call was not correct

in fairness i tried to exploit it , committing suicide at the same time , but the ruling really peed me off.

Also having a few quid on Penetant in the Lincoln at Doncaster at 3/1 was also an influencing factor

I like your style

If this was in a cash game what would you do?

Accept the ruling or kick up a fuss.

I contemplated kicking up a fuss but decided the risk of a casino ban wasn't worth it

err accept the ruling. If the cards he got back are def his then I don't see what the problem is. Hardly like he was trying to shoot an angle by throwing his cards away when all in.

Why did you look at your cards and begin to think?

This is one of the most tilting things about live poker. People hollywooding and playing up to cameras that arent there. Pass quickly please, you have king high.

As for the ruling, I think it's bad if your cards were in view and his hand had hit the muck. The only way some casinos (gala i believe) allow you to get your hand back is if the dealer mucks your hand in error and you can name rank and suit of both hole cards.

All around butchery.

From your post ruling is 100% correct and its a sigh that people dont see this.

how can that be... his cards have hit another player's dead cards... thus making his hand dead...

Why does that make his cards dead?

Because it's in the rules.

That said. The rules also allow discretion. I see no problem in this example with retrieving the hand, but personally I think it a bit dubious if we need to ask the other player what his hand was.

Yep

Think u got what u deserved tbh

Yeah technically the hand's dead but do you really want to win the pot this way?

You know you're not calling so you've tried to find an angle to win his money. Seems a bit low to me.

I could maybe understand it if you had a decent hand that might possibly be winning but this is just plain wrong.

Might be dubious but op doesnt say this.

If villain honestly thought hero had mucked he has every right ro retrieve cards and win the pot.

The whole game sounds like a shambles.

You were put on the clock? and called with K-high because the "principle of any two is good". Huh? Anyway I definitely think you should ask the casino for your buy-ins back, and don't take no shit when you're doing it either. Tell the casino manager what you think, no messin, then come back and tell us what he said.

looking forward to the i got barred from the place post :P...

I was well aware my king high was no good at all stages of the hand , however the p.r.i.c.k. that i am sometimes i called knowing i'd be out.But this was in protestation that the ruling was out of order ( in my opinion).

Like cf says the rules allow for discretion , however in this instance surely there should be no exceptions. I was trying to exploit it but not in order to win the poor fellas chips , but to get acknowledgement that the ruling was wrong.

If i inadvertently muck my cards after announcing all in in a cash game , do you think the remaining players would allow me to sift through the mucked cards and allow me to select 2 cards to represent my all in? This is what in effect happened.

Surely once any cards has touched the muck they are dead no exceptions.This is the point i'm trying to get clarification on , i'm not certain but am confident that i may be right.

I omitted the fact the fella had a nut straight.I put him something strong , but i couldn't even beat pocket 2 s.

The hand details are irrelevant though. Any chance of sifting through the muck in the GUKPT?

 ;whistle;

i was thinking it was best not to instamuck to conceal the fact i floated with garbage.

Lol thread continues to deliver.

Not 100% sure but im gonna go out on a limb and say that being all in and folding the nut straight was probs not the guys aim at the start of the hand.

LOL.

If you miss your draw, you miss your draw.  If the guy has gone all in, he quite blatantly has a better hand than you, and if he's made a play then fair enough, he has made a good one because you can't call his all-in bet with king high.  It is all dependent on how you view etiquette, and to me that would be bad etiquette trying to steal, and i'll use the word steal a pot from someone with a more superior holding because you knew you couldn't win, but at the end of the day he's gone all in before you so you can't win it anyway.. which can be annoying.  I know that your opponents hand could be classified as dead but in fairness of play, with his two cards easily identified, you had the choice to call or fold which is the same choice you had before.  It's the same in any game you play, pool being the easy one to scenario up.  Also the flipside of the coin, if you have the nuts on that board etc, go all in you think he's folded and throw your cards towards the muck, and he's sat there with a busted king high flush draw or the likes, how would you feel if the pot got moved to the other side of the table?  (Not saying that you wouldn't not pay attention like that, but it could happen).

+1

So tilting when people do this. Bluffing/floating/whatever is part of the game and is part of any good players arsenel. You'll occasionally be caught out on it. No need to sit there and save face (usually makes you look stupid rather than face saving anyway), just fold, and fold quickly. Live games are slow enough without people tanking on the river with king high.

Someone actually noted that I fold quickly last time I played at DTD. I 3bet a guy pre and he moved all in. My cards had hit the muck before he had finished saying the word "in". I guess I could have sat there and tanked with my seven high but I'd rather get on with the game.

this uber tilts me sooooooooo much

I mean, I take my time on some hands, but only when i have something to think about.

If you 3 bet light and get caught - jsut fecckking fold.

You can actually see in their eyes that they arent even thinking about the hand, there is no pot counting, no stack counting, just and air filled void thinking " i wonder if that was long enough to wait"

I regularly find myself folding as players reach for their chips.

Its really bad, but so am I, and my addiction for  3c 5c

i omitted the hand details as i believe they are irrelevant to the what i want out of the original post. I am well aware that the hand details makes me look like a knob.

What i wanted to know was is it OK to retrieve cards from muck.

From the replies there seems to be no definitive answer.

There is a definitive answer: "yes it is". but with the catch all clause of "depending on the circumstances".

I don't think you should worry too much about whether cards in the muck are dead or not. Instead you should worry about your protest skills. Deliberately knocking yourself out of the tournament to protest about the ruling is a piss poor protest.

lol, I love a pyrrhic victory

I spoke to the person in charge of the poker room who was not present that particular day who said the wrong ruling was given. The all in amount should have been returned and the pot awarded to me. Any cards that hit the muck are dead and cannot be retrieved.

The supervisor ( who in fairness maybe a trainee ) who gave the wrong ruling is to be given further training.

The point about the post was not about ethics or morals but the actual rules. In the business world and the world of law people gain advantages though tiny loopholes it is no different on the poker table.

That said , it is the onus of the player to look after their cards at all times.

If you sat at seat 9 and the dealer sweeps your pocket aces into the muck preflop you can only blame yourself.

I agree that rules are rules but at the same time I hate angle shooters and people who have abso no right to the pot. In this case yourself.

However I accept there are people who are pretty tez at poker and need to take whatever edge they can take. If this means waiting for a player with the nuts to muck their hand when you hold ace high- so be it

so if someone bluffs allin but then gets the feeling they're going to get called they can 'accidentally' muck and get all their pennies back? that's a good rule

Lol

This person should not be aloud in a card room let alone run one. They have little if no understanding of the rules.

Sigh

Will people please learn that the muck is a stupid term for a pile of cards on the table, the cards do not cease to live if they come in to contact with other cards any more than if you touched the muck.

Could they be aquiet in the cardroom instead ?

some casinos do have the rule in place that soon as cards touch the muck they are in fact dead. that famous roland de wolfe ept barcalona hand, where his hand is declared dead since it touched the muck for a second before being turned over (ie completely identifiable) and the classy german guy celebrates about skillfully winning the pot with a worse hand, is an example.

rdw hand is completely different though. he clearly intended to muck what he thought was the losing hand and was forcing the dealers hand out the way to do so as opposed to this hand where the guy obv had no intention of mucking the nut straight

sorry wasn't trying to compare the hands was just commenting how some casinos have the "any hand that touches the muck is dead" rule

yeah, think they can't trust their tds to apply common sense so enforce very black and white rules. that's absolutely fine as long as they always stick to them

Unless OP was doing this kind of thing to convince people he was a donk when in fact he wasnt?

When you dwell like this, all it says is, 'I don't play hands with a plan' and thus you might as well place a big bullseye across your forehead with the word 'TARGET' above or beneath.