blonde poker forum

this hand seems to have caused a bit of a hoo-hah on the updates thread so thought I'd stick it up here.

We're on the FT bubble at DTD, so we're 5 handed.  I have 500k, villain has 450k - average is 280k, and we're the biggest stacks at the table.  I've had a good run of cards and have raised the button almost every orbit, taking the blinds and antes.  Last orbit BB has dwelt up a bit before folding Ahrt Ts face up.

Next time round it's folded to me on the button again with Ac Ks.  With blinds at 5k/10k/500  I've made it 27k.  BB has re-popped this time to 80K.  I think his range is fairly wide here given the history, and put him to the decision for all of his chips.  Terribly spewy, or OK?

standard... not a moment's thought... shipppppp...

put a poll up

fold
call
ship

this was button vs big blind too? This is just cold. Obv a shove

When the AK comes along
You must ship it!

Before the case king comes along
You must ship it!

To stop the pokerz going wrong
You must ship it!

guessing we're asking whether to min4 or shove?

Fold pre, he has KK.

I thought the 4 bet shove was standard, but a couple of players at the club and on the updates reckoned I should have just flatted the 3 bet, so just checking the general concensus.

flat ak 5 handed... wp haha...

??????

AK is the nuts in this situation, and the re-shove is the best play...

vs a player who folds AT face up to a button raise its pretty close to turning AK into a bluff here, even 5 handed, a villian like this is never calling AQ here witht he dynamic that your both clear chip leaders. Im not saying i wouldnt shove, because we can definately get pairs to fold. Online its clear 4bet to induce, live is obv different kettle of fish.

yer this seems bad beyond belief.

v good post

This player is very aggressive and will shove light but he is a good player who won't be calling light at all.

The AT show was probably a meta game thing for him.

In Claire's situation this should be a 4 bet to induce. He may shove AQ and some pairs 99 to JJ but to call your shove he needs QQ+ or AK and you don't do brilliantly against that range.

You play much better against his shoving range so just 4 bet and then sigh when he shoves and you get coolered.

Yeh def 4 bet tho it makes no difference obv

This is a post of a man who actually thinks for more than 2 milli seconds... good post

Do we really want to be calling off our whole stack with AK though to a 5 bet shove?  That's not a position I would have wanted to be put in - would much rather be the one doing the shoving rather than the one faced with the decision whether to flip for all my chips.

he folded and showed AT in the BB previously - why?

You won't have a decision to make though. Once you 4bet you already know you're calling the shove - it's the reason you 4bet after all.

To those saying 4bet induce, are we deep enough here for that? Any 4bet would be to about 200k, and villain only has 450k. Is he really shoving the mid pairs and AQ/AJ types of hands that we want? He can't think he has fold equity and we're showing a lot of strength of the final table bubble of a live tournie by 4 betting here.

I think the shove is fine. We might fold out the mid pairs/AJ/AQetc hands and take a nicely sized pot. We're not neccesarily turning our hand into a bluff as villain may well call with these hands as this is button vs bb raising, so this is good. Obv running into AA/KK is a cooler and the money is going in anyway.

In fact, in many ways I think I prefer the shove. It looks weaker. I think the 4bet is just too strong.

Sorry for all the rambling :)

lol i realise you can't actually answer this, but perhaps he is not going to keep folding reasonable hands in the BB if you keep opening the button

Its hard because everyone knows the result of the hand to give a 100% truthful analysis. But given you have been active, we are 5 handed, its button vs blind and you have AK, i'd really struggle not to get this all in-pre somehow. It kind of sucks because of the chip situation of you and BB but not sure i like calling the 3bet pre with AK in this spot.

I think i have played villain before and if it is who i think i would have his 3bet range fairly wide here, wide enough to justify 4betting.

I may have got this a bit muddled - you know how a lot of the hands merge once you've stopped playing a tourney and the finer details get lost.  Having thought about it, I'm pretty sure the AT face-up fold was from when we were 6 handed and he'd opened UTG and I'd 3 bet from the button (I showed him AK)

yeah that is a world of difference (i guess he didn't 3bet UTG - you 3bet his raise but just terminology) and does change the dynamic a bit.

not sure i like all the showing though

yes, he raised, i 3 bet.  Still getting muddled :D

that was one of only two hands I showed that didn't go to showdown. Wasn't planning on showing it either, but when i saw his AT face up on the table i just did it as a sort of courtesy.  I don't think I gave away too much information by letting the table know I 3 bet with AK.  The only other hand i showed was when I shoved over a shorter stack's raise two hands in a row, and he passed both times.  The second time kev was standing right behind me and asked me to show him the cards after the guy had folded - i just flipped them over.  was TT that time.

in light of this revalation i think hand is played as standard.

The AT was folded to a 3bet, not an open raise

I dont care if im playing one of the biggest nits in the comp. If I have AK on the button on a 5 handed table and im facing a 3 bet by the BB, its going in.

yeah i don't fold either

but a few people were advocating flatting the 3bet (esp at the venue) which may be swayed by knowing how the hand played out

So com that if he has QQ and AK held there's no debate and nothing said about this hand at all,results orientated FTW lets gogogogogogogo

FYP

Yeah that as well

lol people don't 5bet light live ever, doing anything other than 4bet shoving here would be bad imo

and don't be surprised if the guy folds JJ face up or something, its hand for hand live pokers after all

edit: just noticed dan morgan posted in this thread confirming the details of the AT hand, so i assume he was the villian? if so i wasn't suggesting he would 3b fold JJ face up here just meant general live donko's obv. i have no idea who villian was or even the results of the hand as played.

im sure i and several others would buy stakes right now mate, just so we can say we back james keys obv

Doesn't this make shoving a bit of a spew then? Do you think oppo calls with worse than he shoves with or is his shove range exactly the same as his call range?

If people don't 5 bet light ever can we justify a 4 bet to 180k and fold to a shove?

mm figured someone would say something like this lol

but you know it's all about fold equity right?

i mean obv vs SOME very few people you can just fold to the 3bet btw

lol i'll never forget the first cash game i played in vegas last year, was only 1-3 with $300 stacks but i 4bet all in on a guy almost as soon as i'd sat down with AK, sure enough he had aces. 20 minutes later he does exactly the same things he did before only this time i have kings and shove but ya he has aces again. this dude should run better i know but there is some justice to the story since he played AK and QQ like a calling station so i stacked him both times with AJs and 53s to get my money back from before lol

he doesnt even need staking, he's minted!

n.b just likes to swap 400% of himself so he can rub money on titties :)

4bet/folding is generally gunna be pretty bad ~45BBs deep (even less with antes in there). I'm not even a fan of 3bet/folding much with that stack size.

some of us do back james keys. worked out well for me so far...

This

Feel i have to just have a little say now as u lot really passionate about all of this stuff! Claire played great creating an agressive stlye on our table wt dan problay second in the agressive stakes so its a no brainer that the whole hand played out as it should off ! Claire enjoyed sitting next to you an you played great! Big chara over an out.................
P.s Thanks for support !

But you lost heads up to a girl, why should we listen to you? ;)

likewise - vwd on the result!

Yes true who ever you are ! looks like life abuse but why would i want to come 1st when 2nd best is obviously where i belong!!

Not the reason I'm bumping this thread - but this post made me smile :D


I was chatting to Claire about the £300 and the fact that from next month there are Golden Chips in play.  We were discussing what sort of situation we would try to 'ladder' too the final table to lock in the £5K bonus, and how having a Golden Chip would affect your play and the play of others who are aware that you've got one.

If you're short-stacked on the final-table bubble, would you treat it similar to the bubble of a satellite, or would that make you too vulnerable to others who'd be able to pillage your stack too easily?  If you've satted in to the £300 for €45 and £5K would be a nice bink for you, should that affect how you play the bubble?

Good question Kinboshi. I think that if you've managed to satellite in cheaply and you're on the FT bubble with a short stack you should treat like a satellite and ladder to the FT if at all possible. I would say it's prob best to keep your golden chip in your pocket throughout too. Or am i being too negative with this mindset?

think every one will know whos got golden chips and who hasnt
think its a clear sat situation easy fold on everything except aa kk qq all of which i shove