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***** Hand History for Game 1895160747 ***** (Entraction)
$200.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, October 11, 09:18:57 ET 2010
Table Dundee (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: Igor_Anka ( $244.00 USD )
Seat 2: carlosbruni ( $277.19 USD )
Seat 3: matureporn ( $231.00 USD )
Seat 4: BigCharra ( $209.00 USD )
Seat 5: MarsKungen ( $537.56 USD )
Seat 6: uvs_Zeus ( $289.07 USD )
matureporn posts small blind [$1.00 USD].
BigCharra posts big blind [$2.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BigCharra [  Qc Ad ]
MarsKungen folds
uvs_Zeus folds
Igor_Anka raises [$6.00 USD]
carlosbruni folds
matureporn folds
BigCharra calls [$4.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ts, Qd, 7c ]
BigCharra checks
Igor_Anka bets [$9.75 USD]
BigCharra raises [$31.50 USD]
Igor_Anka calls [$21.75 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8c ]
BigCharra bets [$42.00 USD]
Igor_Anka calls [$42.00 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
BigCharra bets [$129.50 USD]
Igor_Anka folds
BigCharra wins $129.50 USD
BigCharra wins $157.00 USD from main pot

Villain is a pretty standard 21/17 TAGbot, CO steal 20%, fold to 3b of 67%. My only note on him is "DOES NOT VBET RIVER THIN AT ALL", which I made earlier this session after 2 obv missed vbets close together, so I'm pretty sure of its accuracy.

Basically, the question I'm asking here is should I check or bet the river? Have posted results as wanted to avoid replies along the lines of "shove ldo", because I'm curious as to what people think villain's range is and what my perceived range will be and how that affects the ev of a check compared to a shove.

I think I would probably bet.

A chunk of his range is 1 pair / 1 pair + gutshot, which, given your note, he's not turning into a value bluff.
Not many hands which call 2 streets and miss completely.

What percentage do  you flat / 3 bet AQo vs LP raise, and what factors drive your decision?

how quick did he call the flop? interesting that he cant have QXcc.

Yeah the note I actually forgot about between noting the hand for later while I was playing and coming to post it on here. When I saw it in the replayer I was like "Oh. A note. Well that makes it kinda simple" but I was half way through posting already and, tbh, all 200nl regs seem to be pretty bad at value betting, I doubt any would shove KQ on the end here so the note is semi-irrelevant.

Your 2nd point (which I have handily bolded) is the key point here I think: What is the proportion of these hands compared to hands that I beat that call a shove? I think it's pretty certain KJ and 78 are in his range (I really doubt he 3bets the flop with these, he's not aggressive enough) and I think maybe there is AJ and AK, especially with clubs. That's actually a lot of combos. Then I guess the most important factor is how often will he actually go through with a bluff shove? 78 and A-high I guess have some showdown value, would people check those back here?

As for your preflop question, I think my default play (in these positions) is to flat. Being in the SB is important, as is the open coming from the cutoff, if it were button v bb I would be much more inclined to raise, however, as things are, especially against someone with such a high fold to 3bet, I think AQ is crushed by the villain's 4betting range, hence I don't want to turn it into a bluff. Also it's really good to have some strong aces in my calling range for obvious reasons.

edit: @ pleno: I honestly don't remember. It's probable that I didn't even see at the time tbh.

think Giblin has summed up perfectly. And you're note on him makes this an easier bet than a check if he's checking behind a lot with his hands that have showdown.

Only thing I've found is some of these people who don't know how to v bet try and bluff in the most retarded spots so if he has some airballed with some sort of draw then u can check but on this board I would bet for value.

You look pretty strong by the river and there isn't a ton of worse hands he can have and that he calls with but there are plenty of better none of which are folding.  I think check/folding the river is best but it goes check check a lot and you win

i thought this.

defo think theres less hands you beat that will call, as surely he is never calling the river with kq and worse?

There is little to no air in his range at all imo, so c/calling seems like the worst line to me.

Sure there are a good few combo's that snap us off and we loose to, with my experience in how loose the Entraction games are I don't see you have any other option but to jam here.

The amount of times he calls with better and we loose 140 easily rectified by the amount of times he puts his sherrif hat on and looks us up behind imo you just loose too much value.

Vs a stndard 1/2 reg on ftp I'd c/fold 100% of the time most likely fwiw

how has no-one commented on 'BigCharra'.

ROFL!

Was about to! mmmm legend that guy is!
P.S a note for james, Do you think that turning your hand into a bluff on river is good play long term as calling stations noramly cant put hands down. ;ifm;
By the way got the 3D TV dellivered at weeekennnd..................... ;karabiner;

o rly?

[ ]Im proven winner at NLHE online and qualified to comment.
games are ridic loose on Entraction though I see he'll call KQ pretty much always.

the ftp/stars nitfests people wake up with AA/KK/TT a tiltingly high % of the time

agree he calls KQ.

i think c/f is fine.

Im confused, ppl mentioning c/f and stuff. We have position right?

If so your asking whether if we are checked to on the river whether we should jam for value or check behind?

River is close, most often when he checks the river people don't have a c/c river range after c/r and bombing turn, esp with it been so dry and only a few str8 draws out there. You have one read which suggests this opponent might have a c/c range OTR, which leads me to think jamming might be best. I guess its important to figure out if he c/r a merged range (QJ/KQ type hands) or just sets/gutterballs/airballs to distinguish how he thinks/style he plays.

think im reading this hand wrong, either that or some others are!?!?!?

No..... he is C/O, we are BB.

Jam is better than a c/f imo

history (you need to have shown down air and c/r bluffed/ semi-bluffed and fired 3 streets prior that he has seen to make this a clear, clear shove), image (are you winning/losing this sesh/is he- does that impact on his emotional state- will he bluff missed KJ fe) , wtsd (station tendencies- given ur vvv narrow for value), turn aggression (to see how he plays monsters).

The guy is a nit, opening 20%, he's open folding 78s and doesn't vbet thin. His river agg is probs ~20%? Seems like strereotypical weaktight player. River is a c/f, no way he pays off KQ I'd imagine, he won't bluff either. The cr flop line is probable questionable as he is just weak, not paranoid,  he's looking to make hero folds, not hero calls. c/c flop and can probs c/f coordinating turns, c/c bricks and c/decide river, leaning towards c/f.

oh i misread HH, my bad. I think on this board i'd c/c aswell.

As played i think you can probably c/f the river against this guy.

Gotta say I find all these c/f replies pretty amazing. When did 21/17 start to mean the most insufferable nit in the universe? Against 18/14 or something yeah I don't c/r the flop but 21/17 with 20% CO steal is pretty middle of the road for a 200nl reg imo.

@Tommo: I think 20% includes 98s. That figure is his CO steal, his overall steal is 32%.

@Alex: Plenty of history, forgot to mention in OP but I had 3k hands on him at the time without any datamining. I played with him another 1k hands today and currently after 4k hands I am up 5 buyins on him despite being up only 5-4 in >50BB pots, so I'm assuming he probably sees me as very aggressive (probably somewhere near my actual stats of 28/22 on this sn lifetime).

so yer, i guess jamming river is right then?

Don't jam river unless you are trying to fold out an overpair!

i agree, c/f

theres plenty of valid options imo, C/F not being one of them.

agree.. i really cant see an argument for check folding this river.. AS PLAYED

So you would only ever jam river with quads or tens full here*, anything else is a bluff?

*I'm assuming you never get to the river in this way with a 7

Its more an issue of balance If your playing this guy alot, its important you have some strong hands in your c/c range. If say you c/r AQ/KQ over 85% of the time, any1 observant will punish you for this and bomb 3streets almost regardless of board texture if there aware. Also this board is a good board to slowpay with very few scarecards ( Hes also likely to bomb cards good for his range but percieved bad for yours. ala the Ace). Given you think hes a TAG bot its unlikely he'll float and once he gets to the river your almost always toast vs some1 like this. The only way you can play this hand and jam river for value i if you have a very aggro/spewy image.

can those who want to jam say why plz

KQ

Sorry if it looks like I'm being a dick, posting a hand and then disagreeing with everyone's advice on it (which I appreciate nonetheless), but I couldn't disagree with this more. Firstly, I think any card from 6-K will improve my opponent or kill my market on the turn and river. True he deffo bets the A but that's a relatively small part of the turn's range.
Secondly, I think for metagame purposes it's much more important to depolarise my c/r range than to have AQ in my c/c range. Facing the 3rd barrel how different is AQ to Q2 anyway, and I'm always going to have bluff-catchers in my range so why do I especially need AQ? Also if we're saying 200nl regs are ridic nitty (enough for this to be a c/f on the river vs a typical reg) then they're not gonna 3-barrel bluff us anyway, as I said I'm pretty sure they won't even 3-barrel vbet KQ on the end (which they should if they think I c/r AQ on the flop, so in order to get value from the AQ's I c/c, I need to c/r some of them...)

Nevermind metagame, you didn't post any history. Fact is, initially he will give your CR "too much" respect. What is his cb% btw? It is therefore a waste to do it w/ AQ in this spot, we may as well have a hand like AJ. Balancing your range or w/e is irrelevant, he a weak TAG, he's betting a polarised range in this spot without history and a c/c is the best play. If 1) you have punished him for this, and CR'd him with abandon before, and 2) he has adapted by implemented a polarised cb range with the intention of calling a CR (the correct way to adapt) your play is ok. However, as he hasn't you ameliorate his fit or fold policy by CR'ing here, you need to be taking exploitative lines until  given a reason not to.

Flop cbet: 72%.
turn: 47
river: 50

I check raise the flop to get value from worse queens, KJ J9 89, maybe AK AJ, even AT. I bet the turn to get value from the same range. Do you not think I would miss out on a lot of value from these hands (none of which bet 3 streets) by check-calling twice? And then on the river I'm check-folding? I get you're saying I lose value from the weak queens+tens that fold the flop, but he probably pot-controls these on the turn anyway, so I end up just giving 2 free cards to 3 and 5 outers. Unless you think he barrels off all the time and I should be check-calling 3 streets.

From my experience at 1/2 cash in recent months i'd say c/r the flop is absolutely fine and better than c/c.  However on the river I doubt you get value from KQ much of the time, and even if you do that's probably not enough to value jam when he sometimes calls the one rank below you (when we have blockers) and can quite easily have a lot of better hands.  I also think he sometimes folds KJ type hands on the turn etc, I mean you did c/r the flop and barrel the turn - you get a lot of one barrel bluff artists at 1/2 who just c/r the flop and give up if it's a bad turn and although this one hits a lot of turned draws etc, I don't think he's just going to float you meaninglessly, i'd say he's far more likely to jam if he wants to bluff whether it's good or not is another matter

end of the day this is very dependant on your style, if its laggier then its a clear jam, deffo not just to town KQ but also JJ and AT/K10 which could deffo call you down here given board texture and your action (for all the balancing reasons described above). If you are generally an inline run of the mill reg, 8+tabling and not trying to fight super hard for every pot (80% of regs then) then c/f is fine. Playing 28/22 with a very high aggression against a villain that is getting hammered this session-  jam gets my vote all day.

if you put yourself in opponents shoes and its checked to you in position on this river and you have AQ with same flop/turn action, checking behind?

Only read the OP but definitely betting, probably just over half pot to get a crying call from weaker Qx hands

Edit: vs this villain I think I prefer a check. We can only really check or jam and from the reads given he doesn't seem spazzy enough to call it off with worse enough of the time to make shoving better than checking. We get to see his hand too.

Yeah for sure. I would expect to win 99% of the time but there's no value at all in betting.

If there's not value at all in betting then why are we? Is it not better to check behind as we are never getting called and making a note on oppo?

I did wonder if that's what you meant by your question. If your perception of poker is that there is a line in the sand on each board where some hands are worth betting and some aren't, for either player, then you really need to go back to the drawing board. It's a totally different situation for each player here, the question of what to do with AQ on this board facing a c/r, barrel, check really ought to be in a different thread.

For our part, we're betting because he has a decent amount of weak 1 pairs in his range. Depending on whether he knows we know this he might feel that this is the greater part of his range and he will be getting bluffed so will call with these, as Alex said we could end up finding hero calls from JJ/AT here. That's the idea anyway..

With or without reads I'm betting this 100% of the time just based on the action.

He's called 2 streets so he's probably calling the river as well.

With the read that he doesn't v bet light at all we lose tons of value by checking to him because he's checking back loads of hands that pay us off, KQ being the most obvious one.

Obviously we're not deep anough to consider folding here now we've got to the river so it's a case of how best to get his chips in the middle.

After he's called 2 decent sized bets on flop and turn checking now doesn't seem the best way to achieve this.

results?

He snap-folded. If he'd tank folded, this thread probably wouldn't exist. I think it's been a constructive discussion though, I've definitely learned some stuff, most notably the meaning of the word 'ameliorate'.

Missed this, but thanks.