blonde poker forum

Good Afternoon All,

I have read blonde for a long time but never posted or signed up but decided to after a cash hand from last night which has really confused me / grated me.

I am sure I am in the right, but also does not help a casino running 2 cash tables does not have a experienced poker manager to make a ruling.

Location: G Casino (Piccadilly / Leicester Sq) - Been playing here for a while as the game is soft to say the least.
Game: £1/£1

I bought in for £100 and got stacked in the 2nd hand and bought back in for £200, after about 30 minutes I had grinded up for £350 and then this happened.

Pre Flop

UTG (Raises to £6 every hand) - Makes it £6
Cut off - Calls
Hero on the button makes it £22 to go with - Jh Js
UTG - Calls
Cut off - Folds

Flop

 Jd 7d 2d

UTG - £6 again
Hero makes - £32
UTG - Calls

Turn

 4h

UTG - £66

Hes very loose and could always have a flush here but i genuinely don't think he does, so I shove for about £140 more. He now tanks up for what seemed like an age. He eventually calls

River

 6d (sigh)

At this point I declare a set of Jacks, He said Queens and mucks (cards over the line touching the board), He then went "Oh No, I had 2 red Queens, so I had the flush I win, he grabbed his cards back and flipped them over trying to claim the pot, This point I just start laughing knowing any card room manager who has seen on camera or been told by the dealer someone has mucked there hand over the line and then take them back will declare there hand dead weather it is best of not.

The dealer attempts to pass the post to him, I then say wait I want a ruling that is the worst decision I have ever seen and some of the worst behaviour I have ever seen at a poker table, at this point he has stacked the chips up put them in his stack and is trying to get the dealer to deal. I have to litrally not give her my 2 cards to stop the next hand happening and make her leave the board and both hands out.

After 10 minutes the casino pit boss manager comes over who said he knows nothing about poker but declares if he had a flush he had it weather he put his cards over the line or not (i then asked WHY is there a line then he just went errrrrrrrrrr) and wins the pot even though everyone around the table is telling him its wrong and the guy who won the pot is wrong.

At this point I ask them to ring the Vic for a ruling (being same group) and they REFUSE, saying his ruling his final (even though stating he knows nothing about poker)

I'm may come across bitter it has just massively annoyed me...

What would people be asking to happen when this happens? Would you make a complaint?....

To make it worse he then gives me a epic rub down :(

If cards don't touch the muck they're live

So what is the point in having a betting line?

Also his cards 1 was over the line, the other was touching the flop?

correct ruling, you lose. the line has nothing to do with mucking, it's a betting line

his cards haven't touched the muck so they're live


for betting. if chips go over the line they're in play

 ;welcome;

Pritty much what everything gatso said.

But what is classed as the muck?  if hes thrown his cards face down into a pile of other cards then its definetley dead, orginall OP states villiam throws his cards and they touch the board, is this classed as a muck?

That is what I thought? He has thrown his cards in face down

one crosses the line, other goes in and touche the board?

The board isn't the muck, the board cards are live if the cards had touched the dead cards his Hand is dead

In UK poker there is actually no such thing as a betting line, a lot of tables have them but they are purely aesthetic and functionally irrelevant, chips over the line dont mean they've been bet nessercarily either - its an american thing

 The "mucking" of cards is the interesting thing here - I've seen it ruled that once you've lid your card forward the "motion" of that is enough to deem them mucked, other rulings which say its the deakler that mucks the card, once he's taken them in it classes as mucked and others which say they have to touch the muck.

its very tilting but im not at all surprised he got the pot, ul

that's more for passing rather than mucking at showdown. the ruling here is pretty clear cut

yh agreed

22 + 32 + 206 = 260. What happened to the other 90 quid in your stack?

The betting line is for betting and the muck is for mucked hands.

If his cards touched the muck then the pot is yours, otherwise ruling is fine.

However, if there's no proper td or person able to give sufficient rulings, prob not clever to play there.

One time be jaydea

He only had another £140 more to call in his stack. Leaving me with £98 behind.

Its the first issue I have had there in about 3 months of playing there once or twice a week.

if I was the other guy in the hand I'd be abs steaming with you trying to get my hand ruled dead

Agree, shitty trick.

Don't really see how myself. The dealer kept saying if your hand is over the line its folded, so i dont see the difference myself?

shitty trick is going a bit far as op obv didn't know the rule. wouldn't change how pissed off I'd be though

So even if the dealer is saying all night, keep your cards and chips behind the line or otherwise the chips are in the pot or your cards are folded?

Sounds desperate to me.

despite the fact that the dealer's wrong which kinda explains your viewpoint there's a world of difference between folding and mucking at showdown. just because a particular action is considered to be a fold does not mean that same action is considered to be a muck

omg. the best hand at showdown got awarded the pot? what is the world coming to?

It is the dealers mistake. Once the guy throws his cards face down towards the muck, it is the dealers job to instantly scoop them and kill them. They are not dead until he has done so. Of course it is tilting that this mistake has been made, and also tilting that the floor have no clue what they're doing and handled the situation badly, despite in fact making the correct ruling.

I have had plenty of experience playing in venues like these, fortunately Gala notts is so weak on rulings that I can literally tell the floor staff what the rules are and that goes. Once they tried to kill a hand, once hundreds of pounds was in the middle and the flop and turn had already been dealt, just because the dealer had exposed a whole bunch of cards. I flipped out and said that was bullshit and told them what the ruling should be and the "manager" snap changed his mind :D

So imo I'd stay away from venues without proper floor staff and that have competant dealers. Shouldnt be a problem in central london, Foxs is only down the road.

What alex said in his first paragraph!!

Dealer wants shooting for not killing the mucked cards as soon as they have been passed!! Would of saved all the hassle and teached the moron with QQ to read the game properly and not be a total douchebag!!

Firstly, the ruling is obviously right.

Now, putting on my asbestos underpants....

Secondly, what you are trying to do is win a pot with the worst hand by exploiting the rules. This stinks, even if you were technically right.  Even if the cards had brushed the muck, the best thing to do would be to let him have the pot, providing the cards are retrievable (this is why, as Alex says, dealers should bury the cards deep in the muck as soon as possible). I feel that you've got to conduct yourself in the right way, and besides, if you are a good player and he is as bad as he sounds, you're going to get the money sooner or later anyway, and you don't want him to feel cheated- he might never come back.

(feel free to quote this post when I turn the table over next time I get a dealer error).

ALSO....

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BETTING LINE

I agree with every part of that apart from the bit about there being no betting line

and a quick bit of research tells me that grosvenor's rules actually refer to it as an action line and it is used for both betting and folding so the dealer was correct in stating that cards over the line are folded. this doesn't change the situation in op as folding and mucking at showdown are not the same thing obv

At the last festival at the Vic there was a hand were the board read AKKKA and Willie Tann raised the river when the aggressor in the hand had bet again. The guy thought for a while and eventually called and Willie said good call and threw his cards over the line. I couldn't really work out why, as I thought the guy may have been calling for a split (surely an ace is the only card Willie didn't wanna see, that's all he can call with that beats him right).

Sure enough the guy shows QQ and Willie says split pot and turns his cards over. The dealer said no you're hand is dead once u throw it in face down and the ruling was called and given that Willie's hand was dead (there was no question of it touching any other card/muck/board cards). Not sure if it matters it was a tourney not a cash game, but seems that Grosvenor rules are the cards are dead when over the line, unless the floor got it wrong that time.

As others said, I wouldn't have tried to claim the pot in the circumstances u describe, it's a bit like pulling a stroke, the guy obv has the best hand, give him the money and tell him how lucky he was until he buys u a drink, can see why u would try it tho and under their rules u may have been right?

(Sighs at another fantastic Grosvenor rule)  ::)

 :D

as far as im aware and how Ive seen it all over the country the line that is on some tables is irrelevant and i could keep my chips over the line if i wanted to doesnt make them in the pot.

this isnt the case in america afaik....

I much prefer tables without betting lines. They cause more issues than they solve. Not entirely sure what issue they supposedly solve is though.

Agree that betting line is totally unnecessary but i've seen it enforced in a number of places in the uk

if i remeber correctly, in grosvenors. their in house rules make this a fold as the bloke has folded face down over the line.

I've always been told and read that the board is part of the muck, and if the hand hits it, it's dead.  Seriously must have read this in a dozen places or so.

This reminds me of the Roland DeWolfe/Reinkemeier hand, where it was highlighted that the board/burn cards can be regarded as part of the muck.

lol@ the pit boss's 'ruling' that 'he has a flush so he wins'

OP we will look after you better at The Fox, lots of 1/1 games.

A good dealer will bring a folded hand into the muck, announcing 'fold' as he does so, perhaps giving the player a short moment to call time before the hand is made irretrievable.

This practice will avoid these sort of situations, where a player has obviously folded but then gets a chance to retrieve his hand.

It seems the Grosvenor rules make the situation even clearer, by making the betting line a 'folding line' too, so I can understand why you were upset about this ruling. We're not playing Blackjack here, its up to the player to read his own hand (unless his hand is tabled).

WTF do you mean you'll look after players better? Ruling in op was 100% correct. You say you'd give a few secs to retrieve the hand and that's exactly what happened.

Don't see how anyone can think the ruling was wrong. Ok, people could use this method to pull an angle and get to see opponents cards. Risky, hand could be mucked. But that's a separate problem we can deal with as and when required. But the vast majority of the times this is a genuine mistake. And looking at hands in op it's easy to see why this mistake was made.

The simple fact of the matter is that at come showdown op had the worst hand. He should therefore not be winning this pot.

I'm assuming he means that at the Fox if you ask for a ruling you won't get some guy come over and confess he knows nothing about poker before delivering the verdict?

Got the impression he thought the ruling was wrong by saying:

lol@ the pit boss's 'ruling' that 'he has a flush so he wins'

OP we will look after you better at The Fox, lots of 1/1 games.