blonde poker forum

New TDA rules have come out today.

1 rule I am unsure of is rule 46
Folding in turn to a check may result in a penalty?

Please discuss pro's and con's if you can be arsed lol

Is there some paint drying somewhere? :)

I got a warning for this at the Venetian this year.

I bet the flop as a bluff 3 way and got called in both spots. On the turn they both checked to me and I did a fold. When I asked what I'd done wrong, the floor said it was unfair as I was giving an advantage to the person who would now be last to act on the river.

I am not sure I agree with this rule, if it is in turn then you should have the option to fold IMO, a reason I gave to the BOD was deemed to be a "shot" lol

If you're last to act, you are clearly giving an unfair advantage; seems like a good ruling. The rule already exists that if a player stands up to leave the table out of turn preflop that they should be given a warning by the dealer, and this doesn't seem too dissimilar. What are the rules on open folding first to act?

Other examples, missed draw on river first to act playing the board

I agree with it. If the option to check exists I don't think you should be allowed to fold. There is no reason for doing so. All you are doing is making things easier for someone acting behind you.

eg, 3 players reach the river. Player 1 has 2nd pair or something and would rather reach showdown without putting money in. Player 2 folds. Player 3 was just gonna check back but now there's only 1 player to get through he decides to bluff. Player 2's folding has unfairly altered the action here imo.

P.S. no ruling thread is boring :)

Cos gives a nice example too. You're potentially giving position to someone who has no right to it.

I just don't see why you'd ever fold when you can check. If you're that bothered about what you hold then just don't show it at showdown. Everyone knows you have shit anyway if you're open folding.

Just to add I have no problem with the rule, but if I am dishing out penalties I just need confirmation of the reason behind the rule. Still not convinced enough that it warrants a penalty by declaring you have no interest In the pot (in turn).

if I'm last to act on the river and it's checked to me then how is my folding any different from me checking and instamucking? they are identical yet one would now get me a penalty

I think it's simply because it's giving an advantage to whoever happens to be in position in the pot. Simple as that. There's no reason to fold rather than check.


Well if you're heads up and do that i'm snap getting the TD over. Multi-way on the river i'm not all that bothered by it. There's no more action. But it's a completely different scenario than you folding last to act on the turn as you've now gifted the player before you last action. That's not fair on the other player(s).

In Cos's example, isnt it a good idea to fold in turn on the turn so that the river is HU between the other 2, increasing their chances of getting stacks in without having to worry about a 3rd player?

To give a similar example, 1 limper(lol) on the bubble of a tourney, sb completes, BB checks.  flop completely misses SB.  If he is unwilling to make any attempt at the pot, isnt he better off folding so the other players can bet more aggressively and maybe bust?

cos' example is perfect - if he has the nut low here why cant he fold  the turn

like when its checks to showdown and he is forced to reveal his hand as he was called OTF

he has no desire to show 23o as a 3 bet pre/ c bet hand so he folded?

daft to penailse this

He is giving an advantage to the middle player that wouldn't have existed otherwise. He has effectively mucked out of turn on the river.

 but it his his right to do so, in order that he doesnt show his hand, just like he can muck on the river rather than check

It isn't his right to do what he wants in the middle of a multiway hand. 

Not quite. Players have a right to request to see a hand at showdown. Granted, 99% of people won't invoke this right as it's pretty poor etiquette to do so. In this case Cos has made bets and has been called. If there's no more betting then that hand should get to showdown.

But as I say anyway... why's he that bothered by showing? In fact he's doing more damage to his image by folding here. On the river you might fold to a bet or just say "yeah, you're good" or something.

making rules for rules sake IMO

there are enough improvements that could be made to existing rules rather than inventing new ones for no reason!

And onto this one...

I don't like this. It's basically the same thing as Cos turning around to one of them saying "Go ahead and put him all in. I'm not going to call you" and then not doing so. If someone did that to you in a hand you'd be getting the TD over.

Obviously this sort of thing goes on. Checking hands down for instance. It's considered strategy but you'd never verbally say to your opponent "let's check this down" as again, the TD is getting called over.

It is hardly a new rule, it has always been poor etiquette to do anything that disrupts the dynamics in a multiway pot.

name another example where poor etiquette is punished with a penalty

there is an incredible amount of poor etiquette at the poker tables

Complete new rules btw http://ukpokerassociation.com/rules/latest-tda-rules-2011/ bold are the new ones.

it really depends on how people interpret this rule. obv there are some situations where it's bad form but if a td was to penalise a player for open folding the flop when first to act in a family pot then it'd be ridic. hopefully common sense will win the day

oh noes! disaster right there!

Rule 1 of "rule making club", leave nothing to interpretation unless you have to

9: Number of Players at Final Table
In flop games, the final table will consist of 10 players. In six-handed games, the final table
will consist of 7 players.

Not really six-handed then is it? Any particular reason that was specifcally added?

When players are so ignorant that they don't see that their poor behaviour is potentially affecting the result of a tournament it is right to upgrade from bad etiquette to a rule.

lol, I was just reading them. I like the following:

15: Asking to See a Hand
 Except where house policy provides an express right to see a hand, asking to see a hand is
 a privilege granted at TD’s discretion to protect the integrity of the game (suspicion of invalid
 hand, collusion, etc). This privilege is not to be abused.

So they're basically saying you can no longer request to see a hand at showdown unless collusion is suspected.

And am I right in thinking rule 14 allows pots to be won with no cards shown? Eg, Player A bluffs the river. Player B calls. Player A mucks. Player B mucks and gets pot.

To stop one table playing 3 handed before the final.

If out of order yes,

and yes to your last question.

6 max tourneys always have a 7 handed final, as a dealer should stop dealing when 3 handed in a 6 max unless at final table. Same as 8 handed tourneys have a nine handed final because the dealers shouldnt deal to just 4 players.

Thanks, never played or seen a live 6max so assumed online had it right  ;)

Can you clarify by what you mean out of order?

Eg, A shows top pair, B mucks, C shows 2 pair. A/C both want to see B's hand. Previously this is allowed, though discouraged. The new rule seems to prohibit this.

Couple of other interesting ones, especially:

42: Accepted Action
 Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine
 the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by the
 dealer or players. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from the
 dealer or players, then places that amount in the pot, the caller is assumed to accept the full
 correct action & is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. Rule 1 may apply in certain
 situations at tournament director’s discretion.

Which is the first major contradiction I have found between TDA/RRs. Though the TDA rule does say they may apply rule 1 which to me is implying this rule is perhaps a bit too black and white.

And the part about having a dealer kill your hand. They've removed the part about having your cards protected.

What rule prohibits this? Anyone can fold on the river after everyone has acted.

Couple of other interesting ones, especially:


Basically if there is a wrong count by the dealer or player if a player says all-in, you are held to the actual all-in wager not the stated wager.



49: Accidentally Killed / Fouled Hands
Players must protect their own hands at all times. If a dealer kills a hand by mistake, or a
hand is fouled, the player will have no redress and is not entitled to a refund of bets. If the
player initiated a bet or raise and hasn’t been called, the uncalled bet or raise will be
returned to the player.

Correct order of showdown

47 is my fave lol beware Mr Bradshaw lol

I'm on about requesting to see a hand eligible for showdown. In my example B's hand was eligible for showdown. He just chooses not to show it as A has already shown better.

Previously anyone dealt into the hand could request to see this hand.

The new rule states that this can only be done with TDs permission if there is a suspicion of collusion.

One thing I learnt from playing on Saturday was never muck your hand if you don't need too. I was first to act on the river when in a 5 way pot. I mucked my Q3c on a AKXXX board, everyone else checked it down. my Q high would have been good :(

Moral of the story, whats the point in mucking when you still can potentially win the hand.

I also wish the showdown bit had something about having to show both cards. Under the new rules Player A can now just show 1 card, have everyone else muck and win.

Where this gets annoying is we have multiple people and they take turns showing one card each, then take turns showing their second card and taking all fucking day about it. Arrrrgghhhhhhhh.

They should add:

Rule 13.5

If you show 1 card at showdown you MUST show your other card otherwise the hand will be dead

That'll teach em.

Ah fair enough. TDA is designed to be put on top of house rules isn't it? So presumably you'd previously just go with whatever you had underneath. I think most venues would give the player the right to see if they asked.

FWIW I like the new TDA rule and have always thought that's how it should be implemented :)

If a player shows one card or verbally declares a hand, I will insist that complete hand be shown if it causes another to muck, even if they are the last player standing.

House rules are designed to work around the basics of TDA rules.

Bad rule - so emphatic then the"oh maybe not" reference to TDs discretion  - there should be reference to the size of the error i.e. someone says they have 10th of the chips they actually have.  Do TDs want to have countdowns of every player before every action?

I really don't like that rule 42.

A player at the opposite end of the table bets without saying anything. Now, If I happen to throw in what I think is the right amount but happen to be way off then this is clearly my fault. But if I ask the dealer to count it then I think I should be offered some protection by this. I have gone out of my way to obtain the information I need. How else am I going to get the right amount? Stand up, walk to the other side of the table and physically count it myself?

It's clearly something that needs the TDs discretion. But this rule goes too far in making it the player's fault imo.

Dont blame me lol

With reference to Rule 1 in this instance, if it is clear a player going all in has a dirty stack hidden at the back that the dealer missed and all-in player did not correct or even see, all of a sudden after a call the all-in player goes hang on there are 2 25k chips in that stack, that will be the TD's call, hence rule 1 leaves the TD to use his/her discretion. Dont actually like this rule btw.