blonde poker forum

Found the dynamic of the goal quite interesting.

It was Adebayor one on one with the keeper, he tries to go around him, gets taken out completely for a definite penalty but Bale is on hand for the loose ball and taps into an empty net so the ref played the advantage. If Bale wasn't there, the penalty would have been given and a red card would have been given to Cech.

Below is a skype convo i had with a mate about it. Chime in with any views. BTW i don't see my mate as a complete authority on everything football lol, i was just testing his wits and getting confirmation on some things. Both of us ultimately quite a bit unsure about the points raised.

(real name of friend not used)

[12:58:47] Anthony: for bale's goal
[12:59:07] Anthony: by the letter of the law can you play on if there is a stonewall penalty
[13:00:12 | Dave: advantage
[13:00:21] Dave: its just a foul isnt it
[13:00:50] Anthony: is it on the ref or the players whether the advantage gets taken
[13:00:57] Dave: ref
[13:01:17] Anthony: could bale have stopped his run after adebayor got taken out and gestured to the ref avoiding the tap in
[13:01:51] Dave: must be able to
[13:01:55] Anthony: does that mean the ref has to give the foul, or can the ref say then, look i played the advantage and you didnt take it
[13:01:59] Dave: cos then no advantage
[13:02:05] Anthony: but there was one
[13:02:09] Anthony: he decided not to take it
[13:02:13] Dave: but if its not taken
[13:02:26] Anthony: is that binding though
[13:02:50] Anthony: could the ref argue i gave bale an opportunity for a tap in, he didnt take it and thats that
[13:02:55] Anthony: also and this is another gd point
[13:03:09] Anthony: could bale have scored and that goal count and cech get sent off
[13:04:56 | Dave: last one i dont think he can be sent off as it didnt deny a goalscoring oppurtunity
[13:05:14] Dave: if bale stops there is no advantage to give
[13:05:30] Anthony: with you on the last point
[13:06:07] Anthony: for the first, surely its cech denying adebayor the clear goalscoring opportunity so for that offence he should be sent off
[13:06:19] Anthony: cech didnt foul bale, the one that scored
[13:06:54] Dave: but the goal was scored so it hasnt stopped a goalscoring oppurtunity
[13:07:21] Anthony: i guess the fouling of adebayor didnt prevent a clear goalscoring opportunity
[13:07:48] Anthony: but assumed that the rule was effective to the person fouled only
[13:08:11] Anthony: when have you seen a striker attempt a pass and was taken out for a pen
[13:12:02] Dave: not often
[13:12:19] Dave: right decision made anyway
[13:12:43] Anthony: but if bale stopped in his tracks ran over to the ref and gestured for a red would you accept that in the game
[13:12:49] Anthony: when he could just tap it in
[13:13:05] Dave: i would
[13:13:10] Anthony: you would what sorry
[13:13:19] Dave: accept it
[13:13:23] Anthony: yeh same

Personally think he should have been sent off anyway

Agree with G2L, players are booked after advantage is given and play has continued often enough so I don't see why Chelsea have got away without him being sent off.    If it we're Arsenal that'd lost like that I'd be gutted, but as it's Sp*urs :D

There probably has never been an incident in football, or in any case i have heard of at least, where there has been an advantage for a penalty and the person who was at fault for the penalty that never was, gets booked or sent off after the advantage is played.

I think it needs to be introduced to be honest. Also there needs to be a clampdown on bookings and sendings off for poor challenges that have been waved play on because most of the time the ref just leaves it.

Not a penalty no, but it's fairly frequent that a player makes a bad challenge but the challenged team still gets the ball and can continue to press, then after the ball goes out of play the ref will call the offending player over and book him.  Why should a goal change things?    Really, Bale would have been better off missing it, getting the goalie sent off and getting a penalty - Spurs would have been better off then.

Yes, it does need introducing if it's not already.  Given that the 2nd Chelsea "goal" was allowed, perhaps it's already in and the ref didn't know :)

he shouldn't be sent off because he hasn't made a challenge that's worthy of a sending off. the only possible thing he can see red for is if he prevents a goal scoring opportunity but as the ball runs to bale he hasn't done this so no red regardless of whether bale scores or not

if bale chose to step over the ball then he gives a pen for the foul but no card as the scoring opportunity was still there

if the challenge is worse i.e. violent conduct then it's a red regardless of whether bale scores or a pen is given as the denying of a goalscoring opportunity point is moot

Disagree.

That was a red for me as adebayor was forced to go around cech because of his presence, was about to and then gets mauled down. If he wasn't taken out he would have had an easy tap in after sidestepping Cech. The fact the goalscoring opportunity came to Bale was because Cech had stopped Adebayor's initial goalscoring opportunity and for doing that by the letter of the law you has gots to go.

Sending the keeper off for almost any foul he commits he one of the stupidest rules they introduced into football.

What if one of the Chelsea players gets there first? He would have prevented a goal. Ref probs gives and pen and Cech gets sent off.

I thought it should've been pen and red.

ref obv disagrees with you or he would've shown red after the goal was scored

from law 12

yes, he gets sent off for


if however he doesn't deny the goalscoring opportunity he stays on. there are only 7 offences you can get sent off for, cech didn't commit any of them yesterday

It's pretty stupid that if Bale stops running or if a Chelsea defender does their job that Cech gets sent off. Despite what the current law states he should be sent off for denying a goalscoring opp even if from the subsequent advantage there's a goal

This.

Very harsh on keepers IMO, its a bit on the obvious side that if a keeper fouls he will more than likely prevent a goalscoring opportunity but they come out with their hands thats not exactly too dangerous either, so they should be allowed get away with one, I'm surprised keepers aren't sent off regularly for this, If a striker is clean through and one on one then the keeper must be thinking if I even attempt to save this and foul I'm gone, bit of a tightrope....

What about this Scenario - Adebayor clean through, takes it round Cech who comes and cleans out Ade, the ball immediately rolls to JT who realises his keeper is about to get his marching orders, so he then decides to score an o.g and save his keeper, could this happen!?!

Exactly. That's why he should be sent off regardless

Problem is, if you allow the keeper to "get away" with one. They will deffo clear up the striker if they're 99% certain to score in favour of a penalty.

Lets tweak it then George, we will say if the ref deems the keeper to have made a genuine attempt at winning the ball, not a deliberate take him out cos hes gonna score type thing....

Champions League semi-final, Chelsea v Liverpool.

Garcia's scores (did the ball cross the line or not?  It was certainly more over the line than Mata's goal yesterday!) after Cech has brought down Baros.  If the goal wasn't given, would the ref had awarded a penalty and sent Cech off?

no. ball rolling to jt means the goalscoring opp has been denied so it's red and an o.g. credited to a really dumb jt

actually that's probs not right. he should probs blow up immediately and give the pen before the og is scored as there's no advantage so red card and penalty

Sending a player off for denying them a clear goalscoring opportunity is the problem. It should be send the player off if they foul a player with no intent of going for the ball with a goalscoring opportuntiy, so a 'professional' foul. The other fouls should be a yellow. It's terrible to see a through ball go over the top of the last defender and as both him and the striker turn there is an unavoidable clash of legs and the defender is sent off even though he tried his best not to foul the striker, was accidental.

Also the definition of a clear goalscoring opportunity is a little hazy.


If you look back to my previous post it shoots a hole through what you have said in that the ref disagrees with my viewpoint. I have not heard of one incidence where there has been a red card shown after an advantage was played after a defender/goalkeeper had denied the oppo player a clear goalscoring opportunity. So the ref yesterday almost certainly viewed Cech's challenge on Adebayor as a red card offence but as it was an advantage for a penalty it is a sort of unspoken loophole to not go back and book or send off the player who committed the foul for the penalty, because to my knowledge there hasn't been ANY situation where this has occured.

So are we all in agreement that Bale's goal should have stood as played with the advantage but after the goal was scored Cech should have been sent off?

Edit wasn't working so edited the above. second from last paragraph for clarity.

Lets pretend JT did a bit of split second thinking after the ball insta rolled to him and tapped it home before the ref pulled the trigger or blew the whistle if you will!

I was just posting what someone else posted on BF and agree with you though gatso!

I dont agree anth, It's harsh on keepers.

no, absolutely not

So you think the ref saw the cech challenge on adebayor and thought it didn't even deserve a booking.

ref still pulls it back and gives the pen and red card I guess?


that's a different discussion and I'm probably more likely to agree with you on that one. but as for the red card he certainly didn't see serious foul play or violent conduct so there's nothing to send him off for

Both our points sidetracked eachother instead of being in opposition all along, just realised what was going on. Serious foul play would mean an advantage would not be allowed to go on, however a red card offence could be allowed to continue through advantage as long as its not serious foul play. So in theory what i proposed should have happened could have been implemented in theory? Or am i missing something?

Gatso if you disagree with what i proposed should have happened via the letter of the law, what do you think should have happened?

I'm just glad the laws of the game are so clear and allow the officials to make snap decisions under pressure.

Ball crossing the line is fairly clear, and they fail to make the right decision on that often enough.

er Just so we're clear, I was being sarcastic.

I know. I was agreeing.

not sure where you get that from. as I quoted earlier from the laws of the game


a goal was scored so it's pretty clear there was a goal scoring opportunity so if it was considered serious foul play the ref must play on, give the goal and send off the player. he didn't do this so I'm assuming he didn't consider it as serious foul play

I think (but not sure) that you're saying that they never actually apply the law this way despite it being pretty clear. you may well be right, there are certainly some situations where refs generally do something slightly different to what they should do according to the letter of the law either because it's just gradually become accepted or because they're given certain guidelines

Sorry Gatso, on my phone so can't find it V easy. What's the wording on denying clear goalscoring opportunity? Looks to me like he did deny one, then subsequently there was another but not sure that should matter (imo as I said not sure on the law).

Also will people stop suggesting stuff that will keep players on the pitch. If reds ruin games then teach defenders + keepers to not attempt a challenge unless they are sure they can win the ball. This should equal more shots, more goals and less games decided by red cards.

'There are two sending-off offences that deal with denying an opponent an
obvious opportunity to score a goal. It is not necessary for the offence to occur
inside the penalty area.
If the referee applies advantage during an obvious goalscoring opportunity and
a goal is scored directly, despite the opponent’s handling the ball or fouling an
opponent, the player cannot be sent off but he may still be cautioned.
Referees should consider the following circumstances when deciding whether
to send off a player for denying a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity:
• the distance between the offence and the goal
• the likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
• the direction of the play
• the location and number of defenders
• the offence which denies an opponent an obvious goalscoring opportunity
may be an offence that incurs a direct free kick or an indirect free kick'

so cech couldn't have been sent off even if he'd kung fu kicked him? these laws seem to contradict each other a bit

unrelated but an interesting rule that I just found and don't really get

People saying that Bale can choose not to put the ball in the net and take the penalty instead? Since when does a player have this option? If a ref plays advantage the player can't turn around and say "Actually, i'd rather have the free kick.". Obviously sometimes advantage is played and pulled back to the free kick but this is the refs choice. Surely if a player in this situation is too stupid to put the ball in the net then tough luck? The advantage was clearly there, they just failed to um, take advantage of it.